Brake lockup problem

Would like to hear some opinions on an issue I'm having with the Tacoma.
2015 DCSB Off-road specifically. I purchased this car about a year ago with about 5900 miles. Everything seemed great except the brakes were especially grabby...more so than any other vehicle I've driven, and I'm an old guy (late 40's). Now a year later and a little less than 10K, the brakes still feel grabby and apply excessive pressure, creating a nosediving front end and of course less traction in the rear.

As I understand it, the later gen 2 Off-roads had some booster changes to help improve braking power. I'm not sure exactly what changed or when.

So a little background as they may be important to know. About 2 weeks ago I was in a parking lot with a little snow and in 2WD. It slipped a little bit while braking on the snow when traction control and the ABS came on and stayed on. The slip was no big deal, just a small patch. Nothing really out of the ordinary feeling before or after the light. The lights stayed on, I came home and the next day they were both off. I had searched this forum and found this isn't too unusual and saw what potentially may be wrong. I checked the ABS fuses--all was fine. Didn't check the sensors or inspect any wiring.

Then the lights turned off the next time I drove it. Same situation happened again a few days later. A little slippery snow in a slow going spot, ABS and traction control light came on again. It was just a small slip--just a foot or slow. Got home shortly thereafter and the lights again went off the next time I started it the following day or two (it's not my primary, also have a GS350).

The next drive was uneventful, it was dry and just drove normally. Same for a few more days..no lights but didn't slip on snow either.

Lights stayed off for several weeks, so not sure if there was a problem that fixed itself or perhaps the lights just stay on when the traction control system is activated until you restart the engine.

Fast forward to yesterday. It was cold, around 28*F but dry roads. I was moving about 45mph and there was an accident ahead, stopping traffic. I didn't notice it--was distracted a bit--and had to panic stop to avoid an accident. Tire pressure was 33 and the tires are in great shape (less than 9K and alignment seems good).

So I slammed on the brakes when I realized there was stopped traffic and felt the ABS kick in immediately. This of course means the hard braking power is gone while the computer thinks about what to do. I knew I would cover too much ground waiting for the ABS to get it's act together, so I released and repressed--again the ABS kicked in after a very brief braking action. Repeated this again, got a decent amount of slowing down accomplished then the ABS kicked in YET again. The fourth pump got me stopped---whew, only about 1 foot before a collision. It was close! Now I know that with ABS you shouldn't pump them, but based on a little snow testing and braking, it seems like this truck takes a VERY long time to pump the brakes and get you stopped once the ABS comes on.

This time no lights came on at all---at least none that stayed on after the stop.

As far as vehicle balance, I do have the

$256 Hellwig 980 Leaf Helper Spring

Hellwig 980 helper springs. These single piece per spring are a bit more heavy duty than the multi-piece types, so the rear is being pushed up a bit, which I would think would transfer more load to the front. This might cause the rear end to lockup in nosedive, heavy braking situations.

That probably happened during the panic stop as you can usually tell if the front end has locked in this truck, but I'm not sure.

So questions for you guys...
Why would the ABS system fail to apply the front brakes if the rear locked up?
Why does it take forever for the ABS to pump your brakes for you?
Do you guys feel the braking distance when ABS activates is crazy long? I do...
Why do the ABS and traction control lights stay on after being activated until the truck is turned off and restarted? Is this by design or perhaps suspect an actual issue?
Why would the ABS kick on 3 times when the roads are dry? I would think even if the strong helper springs that it would put PLENTY of traction on the front tires.
Any thoughts why the brakes are so grabby? I think this contributes to my issue.
Would anyone suspect an actual ABS or traction control problem based on the two lights coming on and staying a few weeks ago? Note that they have NOT come on since, so if there was a faulty sensor or wire the lights would have stayed on, no?

Thanks for your thoughts...gotta fix this before I or someone else gets hurt!

 

Holy cow..sorry about the long post. I'll try to edit it down a bit..

 

If you find the ABS system is not stopping the vehicle, take it to the dealer. In addition, if you are getting warning lights while driving after a hard stop, there must be a fault somewhere. It could be a wheel speed sensor, ABS ECU, or an actual hydraulic issue with the system. Second, I have the same truck as you and I can tell you, the brakes are indeed grabby. I've had a 2005 4Runner Limited V8 AWD with a similar boosted brake system, and my 2016 Tacoma DCSB 4x4 Off Road also had it. The brakes on my 2016 were good but not as grabby, and the 4Runner felt just fine.

Mine stops fine and I can modulate it, but it does seem harder to stop smoothly in this 2015 I just got.

 

Are you still under warranty? If so I'd take it to the dealer and have them pull codes.

 

If the brake lights stay on after an ABS situation something is wrong.

I'd have it inspected.

 

Thanks for the reply. The warning lights (ABS and traction) only came on during very low speed slip situation in snow. They stayed on only during those two drives, about 10 mins then home. The next time I started the truck after these two incident the lights were off.

The Brake warning light has never come on, it was only the ABS and traction lights, and only in the snow, which is expected. No lights came on during the hard braking. I only mentioned these in case of a possible correlation, and to ask if it's normal for them to stay on while the engine is running, then not come on until the next time the traction control is operated (which did occur, and probably because of these grabby brakes again).

I do need to take it in. Not sure if warranty is still active either-I'll call them tomorrow. I could potentially pull some codes if there may be any saved.
Would like to know it it's normal for those lights to stay on while the engine is running after trac control activates. If it's normal for them to stay on until engine off, the stay off after that...there probably is not a fault in that system, it's just telling me that it activated (in case you were asleep and didn't feel it, lol).

And I too had a 2005 4runner V8 AWD!!! Sport edition...loved that truck. Should never have sold it (had it 7 years sold 2012).
Both the Tacoma and 4runner will activate increased braking power when it senses emergency braking (off throttle, quick hard braking, g force changes, etc). That may have happened too, it was the type of conditions where it may have come on in the 4runner.

What I experienced was more the ABS would not quickly pump the brakes as it should, it just gave up trying to determine if the tires were locked and didn't really provide much braking considering the pressure applied.

It feels like the brakes got real grabby, locked up tires for a sec, ABS kicked in then took too long to pump, so I released and tried again only to occur again
And the hellwigs are lightening the rear end more would lock up the rears first, which I've experienced already too. But the front end should have had plenty of traction and they provide most of the braking anyway.

 

My 2014 OR has some seriously strong brakes too but I haven't had the problems you are describing here.
Take it in and have it checked out.

 

I've had both traction control and ABS activate on roads with ice and snow and the lights never stay on. Traction control will flash when activated but I've never the seen the ABS light except for when I first start the truck.

 

OP.

You do know that the ABS System is not designed to assist or improve your stopping power right?

The ABS System is is designed to modulate the braking pressure to each wheel to prevent the wheel from locking up. This is by design to allow you ( the driver ) to steer around the object. Note: A wheel that isn't rotating will not allow steerage control.

What you are talking about with the snow and ice is the Traction Control System kicking in.

 

Thanks for confirming that...really appreciate it.

I'm calling the dealer tomorrow to get this checked out.

 

Get rid of your ABS... It's trash. The Department of Transportation conducted a study from 1995-2007 on ABS in cars and light trucks. Fatal involvement reduced by ABS is a big fat 0%. Fatal run-off-road crashes in light trucks have increased by 6%. The one area ABS has shined is with reducing non-fatal crash involvement by 8% with light trucks. But now you're more likely to have a fatal run-off-road accident.

It's not worth the hassle and the ABS on these vehicles isn't worth the headache and reduced off-road stopping performance. Delete the actuator and get rid of the crappy pedal feel. One of the best mods for this truck and it also happens to be free.

https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811182

 

There have been a lot of advancements since 2007 til 2018. We are now making generation 9 ABS Systems so your study doesn't really carry much water in 2018.

 

It's so fantastic there are daily threads raving about it, right? Do you have any supporting evidence it's preventing more accidents now than it was previously?

Are you conceding that ABS on 1st gens & 2nd gens from 05-07 have caused more fatalities than they prevented, as the study suggests then?

 

Don't do this

 

Reason?

 

There are 249 threads with "ABS" in the title on TW. Guess how many of them are positive.

 

ABS is not magic, it cannot overcome stupidity while driving. All the ABS System is designed to do is to prevent the wheels from locking up during panic stops and allow the driver to steer. That is it, nothing more and nothing less.

I'm not conceding anything. I also didn't see where the ABS Caused more fatalities. It doesn't Cause fatalities, drivers do.

The biggest issue is the Vehicle Stability Control System in icing conditions and with lifted vehicles.

 

You are concentrating on the "run off road" accidents. In the cases of running off the road the ABS System doesn't have the ability to control anything in that type of an accident. So really the results that you are touting have very little meaning. ABS was NOT Designed for any type of "run off the road" accident.

From the very report that you linked:

"The combination of electronic stability control (ESC) and ABS will prevent a large proportion of fatal and nonfatal crashes."

Most cars now have 4 channel ABS with Stability Control.

EFFECT OF ABS IN ALL CRASHES: AN ALYSES OF 1995- 2007 GES DATA

3.0 Summary:
ABS reduces the overall crash-involvement rate by a statistically significant 6 percent in passenger cars (90% confidence bounds 4 to 8%) and by a statistically significant 8 percent in LTVs (90% confidence bounds 3 to 11%). These are substantial reductions, comparable, for example, to the overall effects of electronic stability control. 60 For specific crash types, the effects of ABS in nonfatal crashes are not unlike the effects found in fatal crashes in Chapter 2: an increase in run-off-road crashes but a reduction in collisions with other vehicles, especially on wet roads. However, among nonfatal crashes, collisions with other vehicles far outnumber run-off-road crashes; the benefit of ABS in the former greatly over shadows any added harm in the latter.

 

Linking me excerpts from a study you say doesn't carry much water now? lol

That is among non-fatal crashes. Fatal run-off-road crashes increased by 6%. You're welcome to do or recommend whatever you want. Do you have any type of proof that this system which has been proven to reduce braking distance in on and off-road road circumstances is worth the price and hassle of messing with it?