Sneaky Underwriting?Clutch FRIED at 38k miles-Dealership Deception?

How's that for a catchy headline!?

This was something I just posted in the M/T thread, but it doesn't get nearly as much traffic, and I feel like this is a situation where I stand to really benefit from hearing any similar experiences you guys may have had. Here's the original post:

I'm looking for some advice/thoughts/clarification/etc on a very expensive issue that I'm currently facing, which centers around, yep, you guessed it......my M/T.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Background info:

I bought my truck as a new model in May of 2014. She's a TRD sport, DCSB with a 6sp M/T. About 18 months ago, my father-in-law(who owns/operates a shop in downtown Philly)installed new Bilstein 6112's up front, set at 2'', Bilstein 5160s in the rear, Headstrong's 3 leaf AAL, and some new Goodyear Wrangler Duratracs 265/70/17(and SCS wheels).

Things were perfectly perfect. The truck felt way better. The steering wasn't as tight since I didn't upgrade the UCAs, but at 2'', it wasn't bad whatsoever. Life was good.

I live in the city, and parking is all on-street, so I parallel park my truck constantly. A few months ago I started to notice that, when turning my wheel at full lock and then reversing, there would be this faint smell. Something like burnt rubber, but distinctly different. It would be gone almost immediately, though. Fast forward to this past monday. I'm parking my truck in Home Depot's parking lot, and when i back up to adjust it a bit(spot was tight)I noticed that smell again, but this time it was bad. It was late, and the store was closing, so I didn't give it the time it needed. When I got home that night, no problems at all....until yesterday morning. I was getting back from the gym before work(I was working from home that day), and I had to parallel park the Taco, which wasn't unusual. This time the smell was so heinous, that it filled the interior cabin and then lingered for awhile. I called the in-law, who's about 5+ hours away. He's probably the most reasonable man i've ever met, so he admitted that he could only speculate what may be the problem, but that I should play it safe and take it into the Dealer.

This morning I get in the truck, and on my way there(about a 20 minute drive)I immediately notice a loss in power and torque pretty much gone. Truck does not seem to want to get into gear. I explain things to the service department. they give it a quick look and a spin, and tell me it's the clutch. They'll have to drop the transmission and give it a thorough assessment and get back to me. I just got off the phone a little while ago with the kid who was helping me today. He explains to me that the clutch is totally fried. I'm going to need the flywheel sent out to be rebuilt, a new throw-out bearing, new pressure plate, etc, etc. I'm completely flabbergasted by this news. I asked him how that's even possible. I suppose I don't blame him, but he was a little smart with me, saying it's none of his business how I drive, etc etc, and I had to stop him and explain how all I've ever driven were standards, never once burning a clutch, and never once having an issue with this truck either, until now.

I explained that if it's user error, so be it, but if it could potentially be caused by some other factor, well I want to know what the hell that factor is, and then take it out of the equation entirely, because I can't afford a new clutch every 40k miles(current mileage is around 38,100).

Question number 1: Can you guys think of anything else that would cause such significant wear to the clutch. The kid flat out said he's never seen a clutch burned so badly in his life. I mean, even if I live in the city and parallel park semi-regularly, in order to do that level of destruction in such a short span of time I'd have start each and every day with hot cup of Joe and 30 seconds worth of donuts in the nearby Target parking lot. Am I totally mistaken? Are our clutches truly that delicate? If so, wouldn't it have been more obvious that this was on the horizon, as opposed to the immediate catastrophic failure I'm facing? Could there be something about my setup that is jacking with the clutch? I just don't understand.

Question #2: I'm being quoted at around $1500 for standard and/or reasonable? It's obviously not making it back to Philly, and I know they aren't doing me any favors with that quote, but would I be better off taking it somewhere else?


Sorry for the absurdly long post, gentleman. I look to your expertise in order to better understand this shitty situation.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


So, thoughts? The underwriter flat out told me that clutches are not covered under factory warranty. Is that the truth?

I'm attaching the pictures they sent me of my clutch. The kid said it was the worst burned out clutch he's ever seen.

This is the clutch from a 2014 Tacoma with 38,100 miles on it. I never once noticed any issues like this before. My 2 vehicles before the Taco were both manual transmission vehicles, both without any issues period, let alone clutch-related.

The kid stopped just short of saying he didn't believe me when I told him there's no way my driving habits resulted in this. So basically, i'm an experienced manual transmission vehicle operator, without any prior issues involving problems wearing out a clutch, who just so happened to melt the damn thing in the last few weeks? At UNDER 40k miles?

Is there any chance that my truck just has a defective clutch? What could the explanation be?

Also, what happens if they just replace what they see easily, instead of looking closer into the problem? Did I just inherit a whole bunch of problems and an ongoing expense that I otherwise shouldn't have?


Seriously, Taco family, I need your guidance on this one.

 

Do you drive with your foot resting on the clutch pedal?

 

Well, it's certainly been burned. To do that much damage I'd think you'd have to be riding the clutch or have it out of adjustment, but then I doubt it would have lasted 38k miles. My guess is something hung up to keep from fully engaging or disengaging. Whether that was something you did or not, couldn't say.

But, yeah, clutches are considered wear items usually so unless it was something you can demonstrate was defective, something in the hydraulic system for example, then there's not much you can do. It looks like it has been worn to the rivets, so maybe it was adjusted too tight and never really fully engaged. I wonder if some people do that to keep the throw out from squeaking, dunno.

 

1. clutch is a wear item
2. 2nd gen 6spd clutches have never been known to be much above average as far a durability.
3. you say lots of city driving, this further exacerbates the situation.

Nothing you can do about it besides replace the clutch and learn not to slip it as much. I bet you give it a bit of gas to start out in 1st or reverse.


Your ONLY saving grace might be the 5yr 60k mile powertrain warranty (though they likely have a clause in there about wear items)

 

Wear item. There have been issues that I've read that the LUK Clutches that were used on some Tacoma trucks were weak links. When they replace it ask them to make sure they get the AISIN Clutch which has a much better history.

 

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

I don't drive with my foot resting on the clutch. Also, "lots of city driving" probably wasn't the most accurate description. Most of my driving is city driving, yes, but the amount of driving period is minimal, as I work from home *almost* full time. I just have a hard time believing that the way I drive my truck could result in this(without me having the faintest idea). Also, would it have been more or less fine this entire time, and then just suffer catastrophic failure? To be honest, I feel like most of this happened on my drive to the dealership. Until today, I never once noticed any sort of issues like I did today.

If this is the way it has to be, this is the way it has to be, but like I said, I don't want to inherit years worth of problems because they're not diagnosing the issue properly.

Also, do I just have the work performed there? Is that a reasonable price?

I was told that they'll be sending the flywheel out to be rebuilt, and they'll be replacing the throw out bearing and the pressure plate.

I know the underwriter is trying to make money off of this, because that's what they do, but is this a situation where I should let the Toyota guys address the issue, or should I get it towed to a local shop?

 

That clutch is fucking fried. I have smoked mine (like smelly smoke billowing around the truck) numerous times. It still works fine.

Your situation must be operator error. I can only imagine you must rest your foot on the clutch pedal when driving (edit: you said you don't) to have the entire thing be one big hot spot like that.

I don't say any of that to insult you. It's just to explain that there aren't many ways for a clutch to get so burned up.

My truck weighs 6000 pounds on 33" tires and stock gears. In addition, I regularly tow and haul weight. I off road it a fair bit too. I'm hard on my clutch. I'll be interested to see what it looks like after it dies. It currently has over 100,000 hard miles on it (2012 V6).

 

Let's say it was something getting hung up and interfering with the engaging/disengaging, any ideas about what could potentially do that?

Or, as you said, a defective hydraulic system. How could that possibly be demonstrated?

If it were adjusted too tightly, would that have been since day one? Could something like that go by without any noticeable issues until it just flat out failed?

 

If the pressure plate springs/fingers looked bent or mis-aligned you could (attempt to) make a case for a manufacturer error/cheap clutch kit. Try to get them to pay for at least part of it..

But it is a wear item.. nobody is gonna cover it.

Look at your clutch pedal. If the rubber pad is more worn than the other 2 then you need drive differently.

 

Reverse is a very tall gear on these trucks. It's normal to have to slip the clutch when reversing, but really bad for the clutch. This is why I recently purchased the 2 wheel drive low mod from @Up2NoGood. You might consider this to save your new clutch.

Also, if you have the option, I'd look into the URD stage 2 clutch as an upgrade. I'll certainly be putting in their stage 2 kit with heavy flywheel when mine finally dies.

 

$1500 was what I was quoted for my '98 4 banger. I said "tacoma clutch" and service manager said "$1500" before I finished my sentence.

 

I hope I don't come across as defensive. I can see why everyone would think that it's operator error, especially based on the photographs. However, I've been driving standard transmission vehicles(both cars and SUVs/trucks), for years without any issues. Also while living in the city. If it truly is a matter of operator error, so be it, but I would be down-right shocked for that to be the cause. If the set-up of these 6sp M/Ts are truly this fragile, then I've learned an expensive lesson.

Something possibly worth mentioning is the way the truck started behaving on the drive to the dealership. I could see/feel the revs surging away from the Speedo. It was so bad that I questioned at one point if I was actually going to make it there. I truly think that's where most of this had to have come from. You guys have my subjective reports of not abusing the clutch and knowing what i'm doing, and you have the objective photographs which basically suggest the complete opposite. Do you guys think its possible for this sort of damage to happen that quickly? It was 20-25 minutes of highway driving, and things were gettin' weird up in there, to say the least.

 

To me that looks like they had the clutch disc installed backwards from factory, the hot spots are sporadic and isolated to small areas (overlaid on top of each other)
whereas typical slip wear looks more like long blue streaks. I see one or two of those streaks but your wear looks more like scalloping on the metal surfaces. The wear on the disc is irregular too, looks more worn on the outside than the inside of the friction plates.

You can tell it has gotten hot, but doesn't look typical to me. When I teach people to drive stick I have them slip the clutch to prevent stalling and usually end up replacing their clutch in the first year, they'll have lots of discolored spots and the disc is usually glazed but I have never seen one look that bad.

Well we did have one lady come through about every six months for a clutch but she only ever used 3rd gear, that's another story.

Clutches go in one way, I'd try to argue that if the tech can't prove it came out facing correctly than the disc was installed backward from factory and should be covered under warranty.

 

I like where your head is at. Is it possible I could have gone that long with the clutch disc facing backwards, and not notice sooner?


My next question would be: How can someone prove a clutch was placed facing correctly in the first place?

 

The wear/ heat patterns should be a good indication.

@Key-Rei is much more knowledgable than I am here

 

Yeah (just took a look at the MT fan thread) the one guy said he had one installed backwards in his 1st gen tacoma and it drove fine for a while, having changed a few 1st gen clutches I'm amazed honestly there's a big difference between A side and B side, honestly I wouldn't have expected it to work at all.

I have not changed a 2nd gen clutch but from what I have seen, they don't have as big a difference between A side and B side so the likely hood of an 'oops' from the installer is higher and the likelihood of it lasting a few years vs a few days is higher.

Oops's happen, even on the assembly line, hung over Monday, late in the day Friday, newby on the line, old hand just gotten complacent...

I've seen plenty of clutches do all city driving and look better than that one.

Either something was installed wrong or failed prematurely or you really must have had no idea how to drive a stick or had been intentionally trying to burn it up to get that. And I don't believe either of those are the case, you sound competent and experienced. In the vary least you're aware.

Even folks who do a clutch burnout (holding brakes too hard when trying to do a standing tire spin and riding the clutch) the wear on those looks completely different.

As for proving it was installed backwards, really the only proof you have are the pictures provided and hopes that the tech has a picture of the disc with the pressure plate still on that shows which side of the hub is facing out, or hope that the tech doesn't have any pictures with the clutch installed to prove otherwise and that they rule with your reasoning, unlikely unfortunately.

Keep us updated I'm interested to see how this turns out.

 

Thanks mate, I'm just a guy on the interwebs though.

 

Key, if you catch this, don't worry about responding to that PM. You've done more than enough for me. You rock, dude.