Swaybar Removal Challenge

Ahhh, that makes sense. It would be tough to lift the front on a really wet road regardless of what you're running. There's few things scarier than the panic of understeer.

 

It was tight in, loose off....back end started around on the return to my lane.

Mud tires at speed on wet new asphalt

 

Sorry man, but this thread is just as smart as the " Hot Water Challenge ".... why would you even want to, voluntarily, attempt to get your truck on 3/ 2 wheels.... just to say you completed the challenge.

Then again, I'm always looking at the 2nd Gen Market Place for replacement parts - care to contribute? Take that challenge!!!

 

If you “don’t off road” why on earth would you even consider removing the sway bar?

 

Totally Agree! I have mine off since I do wheel frequently AND have adjusted my driving style ... slow AF... to compensate for the boat - like feeling....

 

Probably if they have really shitty roads near them and would benefit from the individual wheel articulation.

 

Even without the need for articulation, sway bars transmit shock from one side to the other....found mine to take "one wheel hits" (chuck holes) just a bit better as an added perk to removing the sway bar.

+'s and -'s....mostly + from my perspective once it was removed

 

Yep, exactly. All a matter of opinion and if one enjoys how it drives without a swaybar.

That’s why whenever anyone asks if they should remove their swaybar, I just tell them to take it off and go for a test drive. They’re the only person who will know if they like it or not.

 

I think my truck handles just fine without the swaybar, but I'm not driving it like a sports car.
I've added a shock tower brace in addition to the swaybar on a sports car for better handling.

 

I took my sway bar off about a year ago and honestly I cant tell the difference. I do drive aggressively on the pavement from time to time and it seems to drive the same.

 

Sorry for the late response. Real late.

I took it off because there are some pretty shitty roads around town that I have to drive regularly and because a lot of people on here like how it drives without it. I disconnected it from the IFS turned it upwards and strapped it to something and drove around for a bit like that. I ended up not liking how it made the ride feel so I reconnected it and that was that.

 

I’m officially “swaybar free” and im not turning back. What an incredible difference it makes off road and a very tolerable difference on road.

 

Curious to see your math. I doubt a sway bar connects 100% of the spring rate. It is a spring itself and can be made stiffer or lighter to transmit more or less energy.

 

You're right and I referenced that exact point in my original post (linked below). While it doesn't move with a 1:1 ratio due to it's own flex, it certainly has orders of magnitude more effect than running a stiffer spring with ZERO impact on overall ride quality. A truck with a sway bar performs far better on the road than one with higher spring rates and no sway bar. But as we all know, a truck with no sway bar does better off road. You have to pick one OR put in the time to swap it out based on use. That's the main point.

 

Something else I just thought of that comes into the equation would be shock valving. A digressive shock should control that sudden force from a evasive maneuver pretty well shouldn't it?

 

I believe it will do it better than a progressive valving. However, with the sway bar attached, you're now bringing a second damper to the party.

 

Second spring to the party?

I've gotta chime in, I know lots about this stuff... I'm gonna make a bunch of generalizations tho, so if any other VD/K people are out there don't pounce on the vocab, but also you should have joined this thread earlier.

The spring rate for the stability bar on a 2nd gen should only be about 200lbs/in measured at the link.
"stiction" (basically a damping force) from the bushings could be as much as 60lbs/in measured at the link depending on their condition, but would typically be ~15lbs/in on an un-lubricated rubber bushing. For the one guy @danbow doing a "jack one side up test" at some amount of displacement you achieve Stability Bar force = Coil Spring force, preventing further travel in the offset direction, but you would still achieve the full travel available to the shocks during simultaneous travel.

With IFS geometry there is an inherent roll moment measured about the geometrical roll center, and the stability bar can be thought of as acting purely against that roll moment. Basically the amount of resultant roll due to a lateral load is a sum of the effective spring rates (multiplied by their distance to the roll center of course) resisting the roll moment. As the roll center approaches the outer tire, the propensity for roll-over grows... the perceived roll of the body is about the instant center, not the roll center.

Without getting too far into dampers, what this means is that an increase in spring rate of ~150 lbs/in with a conventionally valved shock will yield about the same cornering characteristic during transient cornering, and using a digressively valved damper with preload on the lsc shim (icon) means that during transients, less additional spring rate is required to achieve the same roll rate, however the steady-state condition (where the damper effect is ignored) is more body roll due to less effective roll rate (weather by less spring or less stability bar). Now the final thing a stability bar will do,especially with a solid axle is "hide" jacking forces and control/simulate an instant center, which is why stability bars are critical to achieving safe & predictable handling at higher lateral loads for vehicles like jeeps, the resulting roll momentum of the CG during a transient switchback like the moose test means over she goes.

As I think @ItalynStylion somewhat said in a previous post, all this stuff boils down to is that the stability bar provides safer handling characteristics (reduce roll-overs) at the expense of mechanical grip and in many scenarios wheel rate (spring rate + damping force at the wheel). However, as other users have noted wheel rate can be improved by removing the SB, by a significant portion during offset events and by some (stiction) amount during simultaneous events, however it should be observed that more aggressive spring/ dampers achieving the same effective roll rates will have a correspondingly worse wheel rate in all scenarios, especially with digressive dampers in lower displacement/speed situations (meaning a more jarring ride when hitting all obstacles in all scenarios). The true translation of stiffer springs/dampers is also challenging to calculate as the change in ride height (lift) effects the position of the CG vs the instant center (vehicles with high CG are more prone to roll overs, who knew!!!) but also, body roll lowers CG, so in high CG vehicles, an amount of body roll is required to sustain a certain lateral load, or the jacking forces/roll moment will do the thing, and over she goes (too much roll stiffness is bad for vehicles with a high CG).

So, I just explained a bunch of things everyone else had an essentially adequate explanation for already.

If we wanna go further we can judge suspensions by a few categories: Cornering, wash-boarding, G-outs, and crawlin.
Cornering:
-Transients
SB is bad? it diminishes the effects of transients, both the time in transient and the extreme of the condition (limiting extreme is taco SB job), if SS cornering is really F'n good(it is not for a taco) , SB is good.
digressive valving is good? it extends the amount of time in the transient (good for taco) due to the increased low speed damping see above for what this means with a SB
progressive valving is ?? good if SS cornering is good, bad if SS cornering is bad, will take the extremes of transients more extreme.
-Steady State
SB is good?? SB helps control steady state roll (taco SB job for operator comfort) and steady state weight transfer (limits of mechanical grip) during cornering
digressive valving, no effect
progressive valving, no effect


washboarding (1-2" hits):
SB- stiction may do stuff, otherwise no effect
digressive valving is ?? bad for the first hit or two, then similar to other valving as shock velocity increases
progressive valving is good, soaks into the first hits and is similar to other valving as shock velocity increases
a bypass makes you happy here

G-outs (landing/ 5"+hits):
SB- stiction may do stuff, otherwise no effect
digressive valving is basically no effect similar to other valving as shock velocity increases (better than stock tho)
progressive valving is basically no effect similar to other valving as shock velocity increases (better than stock tho)
rate plates and other HSC shim techniques come into effect here
Bypass's also come into affect and really change what a "big hit" is

crawlin:
SB- bad, so bad. so so bad.
digressive valving... not good, but eh
progressive, good?? better but eh

TLR
Progressive shocks + SB = ok on road & offroad
Progressive shocks + SB + quick disconnects = great onroad & offroad handling, but effort
Progressive shocks - SB = pleasant ride on uneven surfaces, better turn in, more risk of rollover
Digressive shocks + SB = rough ride on road, roughish ride offroad, less body roll all over
Digressive shocks - SB = ok on road, good off road, imo its a good combo, some increased roll over risk

Removing Stability Bar will increase already non-zero risk of rollover during abrupt maneuvers

I don't even know if I stayed on topic but I like this stuff.

edited a bunch for spelling, grammar can go suck brake fluid.

 

Well @Bandido now has my favorite post on the forum. Thanks for taking the time to type it out! Great information and it confirms a lot of what I had already suspected.

My solution to the "I want killer ride characteristics, great offroad capability, but I still don't want to die" problem was Fox DSC shocks with a 650lb coil and dakar pack. The ability to have a progressive valving makes it great to drive every day since I just reach into the wheel wells and set each adjuster to the softest setting. The heavier spring yields the lift I want but since I can soften the dampers the ride quality is maintained. Having the ability to adjust both high and low speed separately really helps too. Then I can firm things up as the truck gets loaded up. I'd love to be able to run a sway bar with quick disconnects but apparently that's still not possible...wish it was.

 

Most informative post I've read on here in a long time. Nice work!

 

I recently put 882 OME springs on my 02 taco and while rock crawling the nut came off one of the links. On my way home on the freeway the truck felt like a boat. I even pulled over thinking maybe I had a flat, nope maybe blown shocks. Once I got home I realized the problem and went ahead and removed the bad link. Two months later I still haven't put a new link on because I love how much more articulation I have when 4 shelling which I do almost weekly. I just don't like how much sway it has on the freeway especially coming down mountain roads at 65 mph. My hope is to figure out a way to make the links easier to remove (without spending a lot of $).