Jibbs' primarily BS with some truck pictures megathread

Bluegrass Taco · Aug 15, 2018

Jibbs[OP] said: ↑

Who's FJ?
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Mine.

Bought cheap. Needs AC compressor and evap coil. Needs both front brake calipers replaced. Was parked in a barn after brakes went out....used as a dog house. Interior ruined. Tires didn't hold air (3 of 4) Paid about half of book value. I have it torn down in my garage now. Going back long travel with 35's, I'll start putting it together this winter, but will be a year or more before it's done (due to cost) Eventual dedicated trail rig. Or wife steals it to make her DD.

Breezy · Aug 15, 2018

Jibbs[OP] said: ↑

Nah, I just jacked it from @Breezy
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Thief!!

Bluegrass Taco · Aug 15, 2018

Breezy said: ↑

Thief!!
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Interested in a mint '03 Tacoma with less than 50k miles? Dont have a price (yet) left a card under the wiper as I passed by on the way home. Looks like a new one. (Red btw)

Breezy · Aug 15, 2018

Bluegrass Taco said: ↑

Interested in a mint '03 Tacoma with less than 50k miles? Dont have a price (yet) left a card under the wiper as I passed by on the way home. Looks like a new one. (Red btw)
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Yes. You'll deliver to New Haven, right?

Bluegrass Taco · Aug 15, 2018

Breezy said: ↑

Yes. You'll deliver to New Haven, right?
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Sure. 20% gratuity.

I'll try to get a picture (and sellers phone#) when it's not raining.

OR package....looks pure stock.

Breezy · Aug 15, 2018

Bluegrass Taco said: ↑

Sure. 20% gratuity.

I'll try to get a picture (and sellers phone#) when it's not raining.

OR package....looks pure stock.
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No I'm joking....

If it ain't a '15ish single cab I dont want it right now.

Bluegrass Taco · Aug 15, 2018

mwc273 said: ↑

Are we all just posting random conversations in Jibbs build now?
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Yea

Bluegrass Taco · Aug 15, 2018

mwc273 said: ↑

To help him in the future go back to find notes and spec and shit and have to filter through all the utter bullshit that we all posted in here...
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Purty sure he's smart enough to find what he needs. Maybe you know something about him the rest of us don't?

Jibbs · Aug 15, 2018

mwc273 said: ↑

Are we all just posting random conversations in Jibbs build now?
Click to expand...

Jibbs' primarily BS with some truck pictures megathread

Jibbs · Aug 15, 2018

Bluegrass Taco said: ↑

Mine.

Bought cheap. Needs AC compressor and evap coil. Needs both front brake calipers replaced. Was parked in a barn after brakes went out....used as a dog house. Interior ruined. Tires didn't hold air (3 of 4) Paid about half of book value. I have it torn down in my garage now. Going back long travel with 35's, I'll start putting it together this winter, but will be a year or more before it's done (due to cost) Eventual dedicated trail rig. Or wife steals it to make her DD.
Click to expand...

Gut it, rip out back seats, rubber floor, fuck 35s, get 37s, gear it, long travel. Will be the sickest fucking speedbump humper in the greater Louisville area!

Bluegrass Taco said: ↑

Sure. 20% gratuity.

I'll try to get a picture (and sellers phone#) when it's not raining.

OR package....looks pure stock.
Click to expand...

Is it a single cab?

Bluegrass Taco · Aug 15, 2018

Jibbs[OP] said: ↑

Gut it, rip out back seats, rubber floor, fuck 35s, get 37s, gear it, long travel. Will be the sickest fucking speedbump humper in the greater Louisville area!

Is it a single cab?
Click to expand...

FJ is a blank canvas still. Would love SAS with Currie axles. Not sure I want bigger than 35s on IFS. All depends on how much allowance mommy approves.

'03 is extended cab. Love to add it to the collection.

Then I'd be living in the garage....

Jibbs · Aug 15, 2018

Just another reminder:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16x8-Black-Wheels-Raceline-RT81-6x5-5-6x139-7-19-Set-of-4/192612543541?hash=item2cd89a2c35:g:lEAAAOSwgYBbXnUT&_fsrp=1&_sacat=43953&_nkw=16x8+6x5.5+-12mm&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0

Better price

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Raceline-R...m=302818341140&_trksid=p2509164.c100903.m5276

Jibbs · Aug 15, 2018

MATT WHAT THE FUCK HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO FIND MY LINK TO THOSE RACELINE BEADLOCKS NOW?

Unsubbed.

Bluegrass Taco · Aug 15, 2018

Tl/dr

11TRDTX · Aug 15, 2018

mwc273 said: ↑

Well alrighty then...

One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so
much bullshit. Everyone knows this. Each of us contributes his
share. But we tend to take the situation for granted. Most people
are rather confident of their ability to recognize bullshit and to
avoid being taken in by it. So the phenomenon has not aroused
much deliberate concern, or attracted much sustained inquiry. In
consequence, we have no clear understanding of what bullshit is,
why there is so much of it, or what functions it serves. And we
lack a conscientiously developed appreciation of what it means to
us. In other words, we have no theory. I propose to begin the
development of a theoretical understanding of bullshit, mainly by
providing some tentative and exploratory philosophical analysis. I
shall not consider the rhetorical uses and misuses of bullshit. My
aim is simply to give a rough account of what bullshit is and how
it differs from what it is not, or (putting it somewhat differently)
to articulate, more or less sketchily, the structure of its concept.
Any suggestion about what conditions are logically both necessary
and sufficient for the constitution of bullshit is bound to be
somewhat arbitrary. For one thing, the expression bullshit is
often employed quite loosely — simply as a generic term of abuse,
with no very specific literal meaning. For another, the
phenomenon itself is so vast and amorphous that no crisp and
perspicuous analysis of its concept can avoid being procrustean.
Nonetheless it should be possible to say something helpful, even
though it is not likely to be decisive. Even the most basic and
preliminary questions about bullshit remain, after all, not only
unanswered but unasked. So far as I am aware, very little work
has been done on this subject. I have not undertaken a survey of
the literature, partly because I do not know how to go about it. To
be sure, there is one quite obvious place to look — the Oxford
English Dictionary. The OED has an entry for bullshit in the
supplementary volumes, and it also has entries for various
pertinent uses of the word bull and for some related terms. I shall
consider some of these entries in due course. I have not consulted
dictionaries in languages other than English, because I do not
know the words for bullshit or bull in any other language.
Another worthwhile source is the title essay in The Prevalence
of Humbug by Max Black. I am uncertain just how close in
meaning the word humbug is to the word bullshit. Of course, the
words are not freely and fully interchangeable; it is clear that they
are used differently. But the difference appears on the whole to
have more to do with considerations of gentility, and certain other
rhetorical parameters, than with the strictly literal modes of
significance that concern me most. It is more polite, as well as
less intense, to say “Humbug!” than to say “Bullshit!” For the sake
of this discussion, I shall assume that there is no other important
difference between the two, Black suggests a number of synonyms
for humbug, including the following: “balderdash”, “claptrap”,
“hokum”, “drivel”, “buncombe”, “imposture”, and “quackery”.
This list of quaint equivalents is not very helpful. But Black also
confronts the problem of establishing the nature of humbug more
directly, and he offers the following formal definition:
Humbug: deceptive misrepresentation, short of
lying, especially by pretentious word or deed, of
somebody’s own thoughts, feelings, or attitudes.
A very similar formulation might plausibly be offered as
enunciating the essential characteristics of bullshit. As a
preliminary to developing an independent account of those
characteristics, I will comment on the various elements of Black’s
definition.
Deceptive misrepresentation: This may sound pleonastic. No
doubt what Black has in mind is that humbug is necessarily
designed or intended to deceive, that its misrepresentation is not
merely inadvertent. In other words, it is deliberate
misrepresentation. Now if, as a matter of conceptual necessity, an
intention to deceive is an invariable feature of humbug, then the
property of being humbug depends at least in part upon the
perpetrator’s state of mind. It cannot be identical, accordingly,
with any properties — either inherent or relational — belonging
just to the utterance by which the humbug is perpetrated. In this
respect, the property of being humbug is similar to that of being a
lie, which is identical neither with the falsity nor with any of the
other properties of the statement the liar makes, but which
requires that the liar makes his statement in a certain state of
mind — namely, with an intention to deceive. It is a further
question whether there are any features essential to humbug or to
lying that are not dependent upon the intentions and beliefs of
the person responsible for the humbug or the lie, or whether it is,
on the contrary, possible for any utterance whatsoever to be —
given that the speaker is in a certain state of mind — a vehicle of
humbug or of a lie. In some accounts of lying there is no lie unless
a false statement is made; in others a person may be lying even if
the statement he makes is true, as long as he himself believes that
the statement is false and intends by making it to deceive. What
about humbug and bullshit? May any utterance at all qualify as
humbug or bullshit, given that (so to speak) the utterer’s heart is
in the right place, or must the utterance have certain
characteristics of its own as well?
Short of lying: It must be part of the point of saying that
humbug is “short of lying,” that while it has some of the
distinguishing characteristics of lies, there are others that it lacks.
But this cannot be the whole point. After all, every use of
language without exception has some, but not all, of the
characteristic features of lies — if no other, then at least the
feature simply of being a use of language. Yet it would surely be
incorrect to describe every use of language as short of lying.
Black’s phrase evokes the notion of some sort of continuum, on
which lying occupies a certain segment while humbug is located
exclusively at earlier points. What continuum could this be, along
which one encounters humbug only before one encounters lying?
Both lying and humbug are modes of misrepresentation. It is not
at first glance apparent, however, just how the difference between
these varieties of misrepresentation might be construed as a
difference in degree.
Especially by pretentious word or deed: There are two points
to notice here. First, Black identifies humbug not only as a
category of speech but as a category of action as well; it may be
accomplished either by words or by deeds. Second, his use of the
qualifier “especially” indicates that Black does not regard
pretentiousness as an essential or wholly indispensable
characteristic of humbug. Undoubtedly, much humbug is
pretentious. So far as concerns bullshit, moreover, “pretentious
bullshit” is close to being a stock phrase. But I am inclined to
think that when bullshit is pretentious, this happens because
pretentiousness is its motive rather than a constitutive element of
its essence. The fact that a person is behaving pretentiously is not,
it seems to me, part of what is required to make his utterance an
instance of bullshit. It is often, to be sure, what accounts for his
making that utterance. However, it must not be assumed that
bullshit always and necessarily has pretentiousness as its motive.
Misrepresentation … of somebody’s own thoughts, feelings, or
attitudes: This provision that the perpetrator of humbug is
essentially misrepresenting himself raises some very central
issues. To begin with, whenever a person deliberately
misrepresents anything, he must inevitably misrepresenting his
own state of mind. It is possible, of course, for a person to
misrepresent that alone — for instance, by pretending to have a
desire or a feeling which he does not actually have. But suppose
that a person, whether by telling a lie or in another way,
misrepresents something else. Then he necessarily misrepresents
at least two things. He misrepresents whatever he is talking about
— i.e., the state of affairs that is the topic or referent of his
discourse — and in doing this he cannot avoid misrepresenting
his own mind as well. Thus, someone who lies about how much
money he has in his pocket both gives an account of the amount
of money in his pocket and conveys that he believes this account.
If the lie works, then its victim is twice deceived, having one false
belief about what is in the liar’s pocket and another false belief
about what is in the liar’s mind.
Now it is unlikely that Black wishes that the referent of humbug
is in every instance the state of the speaker’s mind. There is no
particular reason, after all, why humbug may not be about other
things. Black probably means that humbug is not designed
primarily to give its audience a false belief about whatever state of
affairs may be the topic, but that its primary intention is rather to
give its audience a false impression concerning what is going on
in the mind of the speaker. Insofar as it is humbug, the creation of
this impression is its main purpose and its point. Understanding
Black along these lines suggests a hypothesis to account for his
characterization of humbug as “short of lying.” If I lie to you
about how much money I have, then I do not thereby make an
explicit assertion concerning my beliefs. Therefore, one might
with some plausibility maintain that although in telling the lie I
certainly misrepresent what is in my mind, this misrepresentation
— as distinct from my misrepresentation of what is in my pocket
— is not strictly speaking a lie at all. For I do not come right out
with any statement whatever about what is in my mind. Nor does
the statement I do affirm — e.g., “I have twenty dollars in my
pocket” — imply any statement that attributes a belief to me. On
the other hand, it is unquestionable that in so affirming, I provide
you with a reasonable basis for making certain judgments about
what I believe. In particular, I provide you with a reasonable basis
for supposing that I believe there is twenty dollars in my pocket.
Since this supposition is by hypothesis false, I do in telling the lie
tend to deceive you concerning what is in my mind even though I
do not actually tell a lie about that. In this light, it does not seem
unnatural or inappropriate to regard me as misrepresenting my
own beliefs in a way that is “short of lying.” It is easy to think of
familiar situations by which Black’s account of humbug appears
to be unproblematically confirmed. Consider a Fourth of July
orator, who goes on bombastically about “our great and blessed
country, whose Founding-Fathers under divine guidance created
a new beginning for mankind.” This is surely humbug. As Black’s
account suggests, the orator is not lying. He would be lying only if
it were his intention to bring about in his audience beliefs which
he himself regards as false, concerning such matters as whether
our country is great, whether it is blessed, whether the Founders
had divine guidance, and whether what they did was in fact to
create a new beginning for mankind. But the orator does not
really care what his audience thinks about the Founding Fathers,
or about the role of the deity in our country’s history, or the like.
At least, it is not an interest in what anyone thinks about these
matters that motivates his speech. It is clear that what makes
Fourth of July oration humbug is not fundamentally that the
speaker regards his statements as false. Rather, just as Black’s
account suggests, the orator intends these statements to convey a
certain impression of himself. He is not trying to deceive anyone
concerning American history. What he cares about is what people
think of him. He wants them to think of him as a patriot, as
someone who has deep thoughts and feelings about the origins
and the mission of our country, who appreciates the importance
of religion, who is sensitive to the greatness of our history, whose
pride in that history is combined with humility before God, and so
on. Black’s account of humbug appears, then, to fit certain
paradigms quite snugly. Nonetheless, I do not believe that it
adequately or accurately grasps the essential character of bullshit.
It is correct to say of bullshit, as he says of humbug, both that it is
short of lying and that chose who perpetrate it misrepresent
themselves in a certain way. But Black’s account of these two
features is significantly off the mark. I shall next attempt to
develop, by considering some biographical material pertaining to
Ludwig Wittgenstein, a preliminary but more accurately focused
appreciation of just what the central characteristics of bullshit
are. Wittgenstein once said that the following bit of verse by
Longfellow could serve him as a motto:
In the elder days of art
Builders wrought with greatest care
Each minute and unseen part,
For the Gods are everywhere.
The point of these lines is clear. In the old days, craftsmen did
not cut corners. They worked carefully, and they took care with
every aspect of their work. Every part of the product was
considered, and each was designed and made to be exactly as it
should be. These craftsmen did not relax their thoughtful
self-discipline even with respect to features of their work which
would ordinarily not be visible. Although no one would notice if
those features were not quite right, the craftsmen would be
bothered by their consciences. So nothing was swept under the
rug. Or, one might perhaps also say, there was no bullshit.
It does seem fitting to construe carelessly made, shoddy goods
as in some way analogues of bullshit. But in what way? Is the
resemblance that bullshit itself is invariably produced in a
careless or self-indulgent manner, that it is never finely crafted,
that in the making of it there is never the meticulously attentive
concern with detail to which Longfellow alludes? Is the bullshitter
by his very nature a mindless slob? Is his product necessarily
messy or unrefined? The word shit does, to be sure, suggest this.
Excrement is not designed or crafted at all; it is merely emitted,
or dumped. It may have a more or less coherent shape, or it may
not, but it is in any case certainly not wrought.
The notion of carefully wrought bullshit involves, then, a
certain inner strain. Thoughtful attention to detail requires
discipline and objectivity. It entails accepting standards and
limitations that forbid the indulgence of impulse or whim. It is
this selflessness that, in connection with bullshit, strikes us as
inapposite. But in fact it is not out of the question at all. The
realms of advertising and of public relations, and the nowadays
closely related realm of politics, are replete with instances of
bullshit so unmitigated that they can serve among the most
indisputable and classic paradigms of the concept. And in these
realms there are exquisitely sophisticated craftsmen who — with
the help of advanced and demanding techniques of market
research, of public opinion polling, of psychological testing, and
so forth — dedicate themselves tirelessly to getting every word
and image they produce exactly right.
Yet there is something more to be said about this. However
studiously and conscientiously the bullshitter proceeds, it
remains true that he is also trying to get away with something.
There is surely in his work, as in the work of the slovenly
craftsman, some kind of laxity which resists or eludes the
demands of a disinterested and austere discipline. The pertinent
mode of laxity cannot be equated, evidently, with simple
carelessness or inattention to detail. I shall attempt in due course
to locate it more correctly.
Wittgenstein devoted his philosophical energies largely to
identifying and combating what he regarded as insidiously
disruptive forms of “non-sense.” He was apparently like that in
his personal life as well. This comes out in an anecdote related by
Fania Pascal, who knew him in Cambridge in the 1930s:
I had my tonsils out and was in the Evelyn Nursing
Home feeling sorry for myself. Wittgenstein called.
I croaked: “I feel just like a dog that has been run
over.” He was disgusted: “You don’t know what a
dog that has been run over feels like.”
Now who knows what really happened? It seems extraordinary,
almost unbelievable, that anyone could object seriously to what
Pascal reports herself as having said. That characterization of her
feelings — so innocently close to the utterly commonplace “sick as
a dog” — is simply not provocative enough to arouse any response
as lively or intense as disgust. If Pascal’s simile is offensive, then
what figurative or allusive uses of language would not be? So
perhaps it did not really happen quite as Pascal says. Perhaps
Wittgenstein was trying to make a small joke, and it misfired. He
was only pretending to bawl Pascal out, just for the fun of a little
hyperbole; and she got the tone and the intention wrong. She
thought he was disgusted by her remark, when in fact he was only
trying to cheer her up with some playfully exaggerated mock
criticism or joshing. In that case the incident is not incredible or
bizarre after all.
But if Pascal failed to recognize that Wittgenstein was only
teasing, then perhaps the possibility that he was serious was at
least not so far out of the question. She knew him, and she knew
what to expect from him; she knew how he made her feel. Her
way of understanding or of misunderstanding his remark was
very likely not altogether discordant, then, with her sense of what
he was like. We may fairly suppose that even if her account of the
incident is not strictly true to the facts of Wittgenstein’s intention,
it is sufficiently true to her idea of Wittgenstein to have made
sense to her. For the purposes of this discussion, I shall accept
Pascal’s report at face value, supposing that when it came to the
use of allusive or figurative language, Wittgenstein was indeed as
preposterous as she makes him out to be.
Then just what is it that the Wittgenstein in her report
considers to be objectionable? Let us assume that he is correct
about the facts: that is, Pascal really does not know how run-over
dogs feel. Even so, when she says what she does, she is plainly not
lying. She would have been lying if, when she made her
statement, she was aware that she actually felt quite good. For
however little she knows about the lives of dogs, it must certainly
be clear to Pascal that when dogs are run over they do not feel
good. So if she herself had in fact been feeling good, it would have
been a lie to assert that she felt like a run-over dog.
Pascal’s Wittgenstein does not intend to accuse her of lying, but
of misrepresentation of another sort. She characterizes her feeling
as “the feeling of a run-over dog.” She is not really acquainted,
however, with the feeling to which this phrase refers. Of course,
the phrase is far from being complete nonsense to her; she is
hardly speaking gibberish. What she says has an intelligible
connotation, which she certainly understands. Moreover, she
does know something about the quality of the feeling to which the
phrase refers: she knows at least that it is an undesirable and
unenjoyable feeling, a bad feeling. The trouble with her statement
is that it purports to convey something more than simply that she
feels bad. Her characterization of her feeling is too specific; it is
excessively particular. Hers is not just any bad feeling but,
according to her account, the distinctive kind of bad feeling that a
dog has when it is run over. To the Wittgenstein in Pascal’s story,
judging from his response, this is just bullshit.
Now assuming that Wittgenstein does indeed regard Pascal’s
characterization of how she feels as an instance of bullshit, why
does it strike him that way? It does so, I believe, because he
perceives what Pascal says as being — roughly speaking, for now
— unconnected to a concern with the truth. Her statement is not
germane to the enterprise of describing reality. She does not even
think she knows, except in the vaguest way, how a run-over dog
feels. Her description of her own feeling is, accordingly,
something that she is merely making up. She concocts it out of
whole cloth; or, if she got it from someone else, she is repeating it
quite mindlessly and without any regard for how things really are.
It is for this mindlessness that Pascal’s Wittgenstein chides her.
What disgusts him is that Pascal is not even concerned whether
her statement is correct. There is every likelihood, of course, that
she says what she does only in a somewhat clumsy effort to speak
colorfully, or to appear vivacious or good-humored; and no doubt
Wittgenstein’s reaction — as she construes it — is absurdly
intolerant. Be this as it may, it seems clear what that reaction is.
He reacts as though he perceives her to be speaking about her
feeling thoughtlessly, without conscientious attention to the
relevant facts. Her statement is not “wrought with greatest care.”
She makes it without bothering to take into account at all the
question of its accuracy.
The point that troubles Wittgenstein is manifestly not that
Pascal has made a mistake in her description of how she feels.
Nor is it even that she has made a careless mistake. Her laxity, or
her lack of care, is not a matter of having permitted an error to
slip into her speech on account of some inadvertent or
momentarily negligent lapse in the attention she was devoting to
getting things right. The point is rather that, so far as
Wittgenstein can see, Pascal offers a description of a certain state
of affairs without genuinely submitting to the constraints which
the endeavor to provide an accurate representation of reality
imposes. Her fault is not that she fails to get things right, but that
she is not even trying.
This is important to Wittgenstein because, whether justifiably
or not, he takes what she says seriously, as a statement
purporting to give an informative description of the way she feels.
He construes her as engaged in an activity to which the
distinction between what is true and what is false is crucial, and
yet as taking no interest in whether what she says is true or false.
It is in this sense that Pascal’s statement is unconnected to a
concern with truth: she is not concerned with the truth-value of
what she says. That is why she cannot be regarded as lying; for
she does not presume that she knows the truth, and therefore she
cannot be deliberately promulgating a proposition that she
presumes to be false: Her statement is grounded neither in a
belief that it is true nor, as a lie must be, in a belief that it is not
true. It is just this lack of connection to a concern with truth —
this indifference to how things really are — that I regard as of the
essence of bullshit.
Now I shall consider (quite selectively) certain items in the
Oxford English Dictionary that are pertinent to clarifying the
nature of bullshit. The OED defines a bull session as “an informal
conversation or discussion, esp. of a group of males.” Now as a
definition, this seems wrong. For one thing, the dictionary
evidently supposes that the use of the term bull in bull session
serves primarily just to indicate gender. But even if it were true
that the participants in bull sessions are generally or typically
males, the assertion that a bull session is essentially nothing more
particular than an informal discussion among males would be as
far off the mark as the parallel assertion that a hen session is
simply an informal conversation among females. It is probably
true that the participants in hen sessions must be females.
Nonetheless the term hen session conveys something more
specific than this concerning the particular kind of informal
conversation among females to which hen sessions are
characteristically devoted. What is distinctive about the sort of
informal discussion among males that constitutes a bull session
is, it seems to me, something like this: while the discussion may
be intense and significant, it is in a certain respect not “for real.”
The characteristic topics of a bull session have to do with very
personal and emotion-laden aspects of life — for instance,
religion, politics, or sex. People are generally reluctant to speak
altogether openly about these topics if they expect that they might
be taken too seriously. What tends to go on in a bull session is
that the participants try out various thoughts and attitudes in
order to see how it feels to hear themselves saying such things
and in order to discover how others respond, without it being
assumed that they are committed to what they say: It is
understood by everyone in a bull session that the statements
people make do not necessarily reveal what they really believe or
how they really feel. The main point is to make possible a high
level of candor and an experimental or adventuresome approach
to the subjects under discussion. Therefore provision is made for
enjoying a certain irresponsibility, so that people will be
encouraged to convey what is on their minds without too much
anxiety that they will be held to it.
Each of the contributors to a bull session relies, in other words,
upon a general recognition that what he expresses or says is not
to be understood as being what he means wholeheartedly or
believes unequivocally to be true. The purpose of the conversation
is not to communicate beliefs. Accordingly, the usual assumptions
about the connection between what people say and what they
believe are suspended. The statements made in a bull session
differ from bullshit in that there is no pretense that this
connection is being sustained. They are like bullshit by virtue of
the fact that they are in some degree unconstrained by a concern
with truth. This resemblance between bull sessions and bullshit is
suggested also by the term shooting the bull, which refers to the
sort of conversation that characterizes bull sessions and in which
the term shooting is very likely a cleaned-up rendition of shitting.
The very term bull session is, indeed, quite probably a sanitized
version of bullshit session. A similar theme is discernible in a
British usage of bull in which, according to the OED, the term
refers to “unnecessary routine tasks or ceremonial; excessive
discipline or ‘spit-and-polish’; = red-tape.” The dictionary
provides the following examples of this usage:
“The Squadron … felt very bolshie about all that
bull that was flying around the station” (I. Gleed,
Arise to Conquer vi. 51, I942); “Them turning out
the guard for us, us marching past eyes right, all
that sort of bull” (A. Baron, Human Kind xxiv. 178,
1953); the drudgery and ‘bull’ in an MP’s life.”
(Economist 8 Feb. 470/471, 1958)
Here the term bull evidently pertains to tasks that are pointless
in that they have nothing much to do with the primary intent or
justifying purpose of the enterprise which requires them.
Spit-and-polish and red tape do not genuinely contribute, it is
presumed, to the “real” purposes of military personnel or
government officials, even though they are imposed by agencies
or agents that purport to be conscientiously devoted to the
pursuit of those purposes. Thus the “unnecessary routine tasks or
ceremonial” that constitute bull are disconnected from the
legitimating motives of the activity upon which they intrude, just
as the things people say in bull sessions are disconnected from
their settled beliefs, and as bullshit is disconnected from a
concern with the truth.
The term bull is also employed, in a rather more widespread
and familiar usage, as a somewhat less coarse equivalent of
bullshit. In an entry for bull as so used, the OED suggests the
following as definitive: “trivial, insincere, or untruthful talk or
writing; nonsense.” Now it does not seem distinctive of bull either
that it must be deficient in meaning or that it is necessarily
unimportant; so “nonsense” and “trivial,” even apart from their
vagueness, seem to be on the wrong track. The focus of “insincere,
or untruthful” is better, but it needs to be sharpened. The entry at
hand also provides the following two definitions:
1914 Dialect Notes IV. 162 Bull, talk which is not to
the purpose; “hot air.”
I 932 Times Lit. Supp. 8 Dec. 933/3 “Bull” is the
slang term for a combination of bluff, bravado,
“hot air” and what we used to call in the Army
“Kidding the troops”
“Not to the purpose” is appropriate, but it is both too broad in
scope and too vague. It covers digressions and innocent
irrelevancies, which are not invariably instances of bull;
furthermore, saying that bull is not to the purpose leaves it
uncertain what purpose is meant. The reference in both
definitions to “hot air” is more helpful. When we characterize talk
as hot air, we mean that what comes out of the speaker’s mouth is
only that. It is mere vapor. His speech is empty, without
substance or content. His use of language, accordingly, does not
contribute to the purpose it purports to serve. No more
information is communicated than if the speaker had merely
exhaled. There are similarities between hot air and excrement,
incidentally, which make hot air seem an especially suitable
equivalent for bullshit. Just as hot air is speech that has been
emptied of all informative content, so excrement is matter from
which everything nutritive has been removed. Excrement may be
regarded as the corpse of nourishment, what remains when the
vital elements in food have been exhausted. In this respect,
excrement is a representation of death which we ourselves
produce and which, indeed, we cannot help producing in the very
process of maintaining our lives. Perhaps it is for making death so
intimate that we find excrement so repulsive. In any event, it
cannot serve the purposes of sustenance, any more than hot air
can serve those of cummunication.
Now consider these lines from Pound’s Canto LXXIV, which
the OED cites in its entry on bullshit as a verb:
Hey Snag wots in the bibl’?
Wot are the books ov the bible?
Name ’em, don’t bullshit ME.
This is a call for the facts. The person addressed is evidently
regarded as having in some way claimed to know the Bible, or as
having claimed to care about it. The speaker suspects that this is
just empty talk, and demands that the claim be supported with
facts. He will not accept a mere report; he insists upon seeing the
thing itself. In other words, he is calling the bluff. The connection
between bullshit and bluff is affirmed explicitly in the definition
with which the lines by Pound are associated:
As v. truns. and intr., to talk nonsense (to); … also,
to bluff one’s way through (something) by talking
nonsense.
It does seem that bullshitting involves a kind of bluff. It is
closer to bluffing, surely than to telling a lie. But what is implied
concerning its nature by the fact that it is more like the former
than it is like the latter? Just what is the relevant difference here
between a bluff and a lie? Lying and bluffing are both modes of
misrepresentation or deception. Now the concept most central to
the distinctive nature of a lie is that of falsity: the liar is essentially
someone who deliberately promulgates a falsehood. Bluffing too
is typically devoted to conveying something false. Unlike plain
lying, however, it is more especially a matter not of falsity but of
fakery. This is what accounts for its nearness to bullshit. For the
essence of bullshit is not that it is false but that it isphony. In
order to appreciate this distinction, one must recognize that a
fake or a phony need not be in any respect (apart from
authenticity itself) inferior to the real thing. What is not genuine
need not also be defective in some other way. It may be, after all,
an exact copy. What is wrong with a counterfeit is not what it is
like, but how it was made. This points to a similar and
fundamental aspect of the essential nature of bullshit: although it
is produced without concern with the truth, it need not be false.
The bullshitter is faking things. But this does not mean that he
necessarily gets them wrong.
In Eric Ambler’s novel Dirty Story, a character named Arthur
Abdel Simpson recalls advice that he received as a child from his
father:
Although I was only seven when my father was
killed, I still remember him very well and some of
the things he used to say. … One of the first things
he taught me was, “Never tell a lie when you can
bullshit your way through.”
This presumes not only that there is an important difference
between lying and bullshitting, but that the latter is preferable to
the former. Now the elder Simpson surely did not consider
bullshitting morally superior to lying. Nor is it likely that he
regarded lies as invariably less effective than bullshit in
accomplishing the purposes for which either of them might be
employed. After all, an intelligently crafted lie may do its work
with unqualified success. It may be that Simpson thought it easier
to get away with bullshitting than with lying. Or perhaps he
meant that, although the risk of being caught is about the same in
each case, the consequences of being caught are generally less
severe for the bullshitter than for the liar. In fact, people do tend
to be more tolerant of bullshit than of lies, perhaps because we
are less inclined to take the former as a personal affront. We may
seek to distance ourselves from bullshit, but we are more likely to
turn away from it with an impatient or irritated shrug than with
the sense of violation or outrage that lies often inspire. The
problem of understanding why our attitude toward bullshit is
generally more benign than our attitude toward lying is an
important one, which I shall leave as an exercise for the reader.
The pertinent comparison is not, however, between telling a lie
and producing some particular instance of bullshit. The elder
Simpson identifies the alternative to telling a lie as “bullshitting
one’s way through.” This involves not merely producing one
instance of bullshit; it involves a program of producing bullshit
to whatever extent the circumstances require. This is a key,
perhaps, to his preference. Telling a lie is an act with a sharp
focus. It is designed to insert a particular falsehood at a specific
point in a set or system of beliefs, in order to avoid the
consequences of having that point occupied by the truth. This
requires a degree of craftsmanship, in which the teller of the lie
submits to objective constraints imposed by what he takes to be
the truth. The liar is inescapably concerned with truth-values. In
order to invent a lie at all, he must think he knows what is true.
And in order to invent an effective lie, he must design his
falsehood under the guidance of that truth. On the other hand, a
person who undertakes to bullshit his way through has much
more freedom. His focus is panoramic rather than particular. He
does not limit himself to inserting a certain falsehood at a specific
point, and thus he is not constrained by the truths surrounding
that point or intersecting it. He is prepared to fake the context as
well, so far as need requires. This freedom from the constraints to
which the liar must submit does not necessarily mean, of course,
that his task is easier than the task of the liar. But the mode of
creativity upon which it relies is less analytical and less
deliberative than that which is mobilized in lying. It is more
expansive and independent, with mare spacious opportunities for
improvisation, color, and imaginative play. This is less a matter of
craft than of art. Hence the familiar notion of the “bullshit artist.”
My guess is that the recommendation offered by Arthur
Simpson’s father reflects the fact that he was more strongly drawn
to this mode of creativity, regardless of its relative merit or
effectiveness, than he was to the more austere and rigorous
demands of lying.
What bullshit essentially misrepresents is neither the state of
affairs to which it refers nor the beliefs of the speaker concerning
that state of affairs. Those are what lies misrepresent, by virtue of
being false. Since bullshit need not be false, it differs from lies in
its misrepresentational intent. The bullshitter may not deceive us,
or even intend to do so, either about the facts or about what he
takes the facts to be. What he does necessarily attempt to deceive
us about is his enterprise. His only indispensably distinctive
characteristic is that in a certain way he misrepresents what he is
up to.
This is the crux of the distinction between him and the liar.
Both he and the liar represent themselves falsely as endeavoring
to communicate the truth. The success of each depends upon
deceiving us about that. But the fact about himself that the liar
hides is that he is attempting to lead us away from a correct
apprehension of reality; we are not to know that he wants us to
believe something he supposes to be false. The fact about himself
that the bullshitter hides, on the other hand, is that the
truth-values of his statements are of no central interest to him;
what we are not to understand is that his intention is neither to
report the truth nor co conceal it. This does not mean that his
speech is anarchically impulsive, but that the motive guiding and
controlling it is unconcerned with how the things about which he
speaks truly are.
It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows
the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction. A
person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to
that extent respectful of it. When an honest man speaks, he says
only what he believes to be true; and for the liar, it is
correspondingly indispensable that he considers his statements to
be false. For the bullshitter, however, all these bets are off: he is
neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. His eye
is not on the facts at all, as the eyes of the honest man and of the
liar are, except insofar as they may be pertinent to his interest in
getting away with what he says. He does not care whether the
things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out,
or makes them up, to suit his purpose.
In his essay, “Lying,” St. Augustine distinguishes lies of eight
types, which he classifies according to the characteristic intent or
justification with which a lie is told. Lies of seven of these types
are told only because they are supposed to be indispensable
means to some end that is distinct from the sheer creation of false
beliefs. It is not their falsity as such, in other words, that attracts
the teller to them. Since they are told only on account of their
supposed indispensability to a goal other than deception itself, St.
Augustine regards them as being told unwillingly: what the
person really wants is not to tell the lie but to attain the goal. They
are therefore not real lies, in his view, and those who tell them are
not in the strictest sense liars. It is only the remaining category
that contains what he identifies as “the lie which is told solely for
the pleasure of lying and deceiving, that is, the real lie.” Lies in
this category are not told as means to any end distinct form the
propagation of falsehood. They are told simply for their own
sakes — i.e., purely out of a love of deception:
There is a distinction between a person who tells a
lie and a liar. The former is one who tells a lie
unwillingly, while the liar loves to lie and passes
his time in the joy of lying. … The latter takes
delight in lying, rejoicing in the falsehood itself.
What Augustine calls “liars” and “real lies” are both rare and
extraordinary. Everyone lies from time to time, but there are very
few people to whom it would often (or even ever) occur to lie
exclusively from a love of falsity or of deception. For most people,
the fact that a statement is false constitutes in itself a reason,
however weak and easily overridden, not to make the statement.
For St. Augustine’s pure liar it is, on the contrary, a reason in
favor of making it. For the bullshitter it is in itself neither a
reason in favor nor a reason against. Both in lying and in telling
the truth people are guided by their beliefs concerning the way
things are. These guide them as they endeavor either to describe
the world correctly or to describe it deceitfully. For this reason,
telling lies does not tend to unfit a person for telling the truth in
the same way that bullshitting tends to. Through excessive
indulgence in the latter activity, which involves making assertions
without paying attention to anything except what it suits one to
say, a person’s normal habit of attending to the ways things are
may become attenuated or lost. Someone who lies and someone
who tells the truth are playing on opposite sides, so to speak, in
the same game. Each responds to the facts as he understands
them, although the response of the one is guided by the authority
of the truth, while the response of the other defies that authority
and refuses to meet its demands. The bullshitter ignores these
demands altogether. He does not reject the authority of the truth,
as the liar does, and oppose himself to it. He pays no attention to
it at all. By virtue of this, bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth
than lies are.
One who is concerned to report or to conceal the facts assumes
that there are indeed facts that are in some way both determinate
and knowable. His interest in telling the truth or in lying
presupposes that there is a difference between getting things
wrong and getting them right, and that it is at least occasionally
possible to tell the difference. Someone who ceases to believe in
the possibility of identifying certain statements as true and others
as false can have only two alternatives. The first is to desist both
from efforts to tell the truth and from efforts to deceive. This
would mean refraining from making any assertion whatever
about the facts. The second alternative is to continue making
assertions that purport to describe the way things are but that
cannot be anything except bullshit.
Why is there so much bullshit? Of course it is impossible to be
sure that there is relatively more of it nowadays than at other
times. There is more communication of all kinds in our time than
ever before, but the proportion that is bullshit may not have
increased. Without assuming that the incidence of bullshit is
actually greater now, I will mention a few considerations that help
to account for the fact that it is currently so great.
Bullshit is unavoidable whenever circumstances require
someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about. Thus
the production of bullshit is stimulated whenever a person’s
obligations or opportunities to speak about some topic are more
excessive than his knowledge of the facts that are relevant to that
topic. This discrepancy is common in public life, where people are
frequently impelled — whether by their own propensities or by
the demands of others — to speak extensively about matters of
which they are to some degree ignorant. Closely related instances
arise from the widespread conviction that it is the responsibility
of a citizen in a democracy to have opinions about everything, or
at least everything that pertains to the conduct of his country’s
affairs. The lack of any significant connection between a person’s
opinions and his apprehension of reality will be even more severe,
needless to say, for someone who believes it his responsibility, as
a conscientious moral agent, to evaluate events and conditions in
all parts of the world.
The contemporary proliferation of bullshit also has deeper
sources, in various forms of skepticism which deny that we can
have any reliable access to an objective reality and which
therefore reject the possibility of knowing how things truly are.
These “anti-realist” doctrines undermine confidence in the value
of disinterested efforts to determine what is true and what is
false, and even in the intelligibility of the notion of objective
inquiry. One response to this loss of confidence has been a retreat
from the discipline required by dedication to the ideal of
correctness to a quite different sort of discipline, which is
imposed by pursuit of an alternative ideal of sincerity. Rather
than seeking primarily to arrive at accurate representations of a
common world, the individual turns toward trying to provide
honest representations of himself. Convinced that reality has no
inherent nature, which he might hope to identify as the truth
about things, he devotes himself to being true to his own nature.
It is as though he decides that since it makes no sense to try to be
true to the facts, he must therefore try instead to be true to
himself.
But it is preposterous to imagine that we ourselves are
determinate, and hence susceptible both to correct and to
incorrect descriptions, while supposing that the ascription of
determinacy to anything else has been exposed as a mistake. As
conscious beings, we exist only in response to other things, and
we cannot know ourselves at all without knowing them.
Moreover, there is nothing in theory, and certainly nothing in
experience, to support the extraordinary judgment that it is the
truth about himself that is the easiest for a person to know. Facts
about ourselves are not peculiarly solid and resistant to skeptical
dissolution. Our natures are, indeed, elusively insubstantial —
notoriously less stable and less inherent than the natures of other
things. And insofar as this is the case, sincerity itself is bullshit.
Click to expand...

Only read the first sentence. Someone give me the cliffs notes

Bluegrass Taco · Aug 15, 2018

11TRDTX said: ↑

Only read the first sentence. Someone give me the cliffs notes
Click to expand...

Jibbs · Aug 15, 2018

11TRDTX said: ↑

Only read the first sentence. Someone give me the cliffs notes
Click to expand...

Nothing isn't bullshit

dirty deeds · Aug 15, 2018

Jibbs[OP] said: ↑

Just another reminder:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16x8-Black-Wheels-Raceline-RT81-6x5-5-6x139-7-19-Set-of-4/192612543541?hash=item2cd89a2c35:g:lEAAAOSwgYBbXnUT&_fsrp=1&_sacat=43953&_nkw=16x8+6x5.5+-12mm&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0

Better price

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Raceline-RT-81-Black-Rock-8-16x8-6x139-7-6x5-5-19mm-Black-Wheels-Rims/302818341140?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20180105095853&meid=5614a55895a84e7ba9e4d93eccb3b76e&pid=100903&rk=1&rkt=4&sd=302818341140&itm=302818341140&_trksid=p2509164.c100903.m5276
Click to expand...

Thems real wuns?

Bluegrass Taco · Aug 15, 2018

Jibbs[OP] said: ↑

Nothing isn't bullshit
Click to expand...

Jibbs · Aug 15, 2018

dirty deeds said: ↑

Thems real wuns?
Click to expand...

Yar. Raceline is apparently decent, but I'm trying to find some more info as well. I'd love to get beadlocks if I can swing them

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