Pro-life or Pro-choice?

Who gets to decide when a parent can take care of a kid within their own means? You, the government, me? Would the same people with 4 TV's, a new Hummer, IPhones and a new Polaris ATV around the house be the same ones you deem that do not have their own means to take care of kids? This is not a 3rd world country. Our level of poverty in the US far exceeds many country's level of wealth. I have to work in several housing authority projects and I'm in the houses of the poor. I have to push more beer cans, lottery tickets, and drugs out of my way on one visit to their homes than I've ever purchased in my life.

Just so you know, I was raised the son of a textile mill worker and a cafeteria worker. Would you deem their salaries enough? We didn't have everything we wanted, but we didn't go without. That's because they didn't stay out all night drinking, getting wasted, gambling it all away or popping out more babies than you could count. We didn't have the biggest house, largest TV, newest car, longest vacations or latest gadget. But we did just fine - because I had parents who knew how to prioritize the things that were important. Would you have taken away their right to choose to have me if you were in charge of deeming who can raise kids within their own means?

Might I also add that unneccessary Social programs will never go away - not because they're needed, but because it's the easiest way to buy votes.

 

Sorry, I can't keep track of some 300 members choice on here, I was just responding.

Let me a little bit more clear. I did not knowingly have sex without a condom, making an unborn child pay the price. I had sex with condoms on that particuler incident until the condom slipped off. There was obviously some residue of semen on something, but I did not cum directly into her vagina without a condom on at any time. In other words, I did not choose to continue without protection. I thought I was clear but this should clear it up for you.

Also, since were humans, we can expect a percentage of the youth population to get pregnant through dumb mistakes. It's something that will never be erradicated. So, given that constant, there will be women forced to carry a baby to term because in this scenario, abortion is illegal. Henceforth my statement of women being forced to have children.

 

I don't expect you to know each member's opinion. I was just stating that I was pro choice before going on to say things that I realize sound anti-choice.

Your original story included, "It slipped off and inserted itself in her vagina. I realized after a little bit that things started to feel, oddly enough, much better down there than before. We stopped, I fished (no pun intended) out the slippery devil, and she went the next day to a clinic for a morning after pill." Maybe you mis-spoke, but that doesn't sound like 'we didn't realize until after.' It sounds more like, "We stopped... then I finished... after realizing something was amiss."

Whether or not there was intent, I obviously can't say b/c I'm not you and I wasn't there. But I don't think your first statement was as clear as you do.

Just because dumb kids make dumb mistakes in our society, I don't concede the point that people are being FORCED to carry unwanted children to term. Nobody puts a gun to dumb kids heads and makes them have unprotected sex.

 

I have.

I wouldn't date someone who was pro-choice.

Another thing to think about, if the father of the child wanted an abortion and the mother didn't, should the father be forced to pay child support?

I could. I would like to think I wouldn't penalize the child for the actions of the father. I would consider it the same as adoption.

I've always thought this was odd, and I am against that prohibition. I knew a woman who knew for certain that she never wanted to have kids. She couldn't get her tubes tied until she was 30-something.

 

Now, can we move on?

 

I didn't assume you misspelled it... I just misread it like 3 times. That's on me. (Could have just said that you wrote 'fished' and not 'finished' instead of going through the whole post w/ the red ink.)

I'll move on from your choice, but I still disagree with the notion that there are people in this country who are forces to have babies.

 

Glad we can move on because we agree, as you stated before, that pro-'choice' is the way to go. The statement that I was arguing was that IF the United States outlawed abortion again, then there would be no recourse for the constant of young people doing what they do and making stupid mistakes without thinking of the consequences. Since you are pro-'choice', you obviously agree for the need of said recourse. My statement is that if there were no recourse, if abortion was outlawed, then when these stupid teenagers get pregnant, they would be forced to carry their child to term.

 

As an atheist I have no religious dogma to dictate my answer on rhis matter. I personally would not have chosen abortion if my g/f or wife (that does not sound good, for the record I only have a wife now) became pregnant and it was unwanted. However until such a time comes that we teach and provide effective contraception the need for abortion will remain, and therefore should remain safe and legal.


My $.02

 

If you want/need an abortion, I won't stop you, so don't stop me from owning a gun.
Kind of simple, don't ya think?

 

Our agreement begins and ends with the fact that abortion should be legal.

I absolutely disagree with the notion of abortion as a method of birth control. I believe that life begins at conception, so abortion at any point is destroying human life.

The belief that life begins at conception is only my belief. I can't scientifically prove it. There are cells... about 9 months later those cells become a living breathing baby, and at some point inbetween most people say it becomes a human life. Some people (like me) call it that from the beginning. Others don't think it happens until the baby is born and completely separate from the mother. Most fall somewhere in the middle. I only believe in the freedom of choice because the government has no business dictating the point at which life begins.

For me, it boils down to the fact that a fertalized egg will develop into a baby if unincumbered by either medical interference or natural complications. So... interfering with the gestation at any point is preventing a baby from growing up. To me, there's no meaningful difference between abortion and leaving a baby in a trashcan.

 

A bit off topic:

Given what we know about genetic engineering and cloning, every human cell is a potential life. Do you feel a moral obligation to the holocaust of potential life you destroy when you scratch your nose?

I make this point to demonstrate there has to be a difference between a single cell which happens to be a fertalized egg and the trillions upon trillions of cells which make up a person. Meaningful life can not be present with only one cell. This type of thinking has put up a huge roadblock to stem cell research which uses cells harvested from blastocysts (a cluster of 166 cells) if I remember correctly. Again you lose more cells scratching your nose. Why do we have a higher moral obligation to a cluster of 166 cells, than to all of the people whose suffering could be eliminated with treatments garnered from stem cell research?

 

I think you helped me make my point in the highlighted portion of your comment above... there IS a meaningful difference b/w a single skin cell from my nose and a single cell that is a fertilized egg. Comparing the cells in my nose to an embryo is a silly analogy, as you said yourself. The cells in my nose won't turn into a human baby 9 months from now. Yes, they have the blueprints for life, but they are not themselves potential life.

I'm not an expert in this field, but from what I read just now a blastocyst is a stage of the development of an embryo, correct? Harvesting one means ending the process of life creation at that stage, right? If so, then I guess I'm one of those hard-headed right-wing nutjobs who thinks it's wrong to do so.

There is plenty of research that can be done through the harvesting and study of stem cells from the umbilical cord.

 

He IS talking about genetic engineering and cloning, which WOULD mean that through that process any cell from your body could be used to make life.

How can you endorse this thing you plainly see as "murder", or damned close to it with the trash can comment, or your comment how and unborn baby is paying the price. If you have such strong convictions then just go pro-life. Government has to control some things, deal with it. Just because it would be federal law doesn't mean it's big brother. You are obviously pro-life in every aspect except for allowing government to endorse and enforce it.

That exact thought process is what has retarded stem cell research so far. Well, that and the restrictive funding laws, which stemmed from that thought process. Stem cell research works, and will work better in the future if unimpeded. Especially from the likes that see research facilities getting only umbilical cord cells.

 

If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one.
If you don't like guns, don't buy one.
If you don't like pornography, don't go in the booth with a hand full of quarters.
If you don't think the U.S. government can do any thing right, don't call the Coast Guard when your boat starts to sink.
And
I'll buy a truck from what ever country I want.
Freedom, it's what makes the United States superior to every other country on the face of the Earth!
22 years in the Coast Guard I never spent a second on patrol trying to keep all the Americans from trying to escape.

 

In case anyone has any questions- This is a forum for Tacoma Enthusiasts. That doesn't mean we ONLY EVER talk about trucks.

You have the power and the right to NOT click on links to threads you have no interest in. Don't expect to screw up a thread with negative posts and suggestions that everyone else should leave.

 

Point taken. But I've still got the easiest $20 spot you've ever made if you close it.

Classic case of 'all you can do anything about is yourself' here. And I'm guilty of clicking on this thread 2x too many. I've decided to do something about that.

Thanks for the delete. I didn't expect to screw up the thread, because you can't polish a turd. Call it a momentary lapse of reason, but I'm disgusted when it's impossible to get away from this stuff - it's why I head out in the garage in wrench in the first place.

 

On an iPhone, can't read the green stuff you wrote.

As for the red... Any cell in my body will not, unimpeded, become human life. We have the ability to create life from any cell, and that is different. The argument that all cells are equal in this discussion just because technology can create life from any cell is stupid.

As for the blue... I don't endorse abortion. I just don't believe the government can or should tell anybody when life begins or what they can or cannot do with their own bodies. I don't think that makes me afraid of big brother.

As for my own life, I am pro-life. I would never advise a woman I know to abort a baby. I would express my feeling that it is the destruction of a human life to anybody who asked my opinion. I wouldn't make the decision for them, because we live in a country with certain freedoms and that choice is one of them. I don't understand why a person has to either be in support of pro-choice, or in support of banning all abortions and taking that right away completely. In fact, I would think that peo-choice folks would like me... I may not support the choice, but I'm not out to take it away from anybody.

I wish I had seen the deleted post... Somebody PM me the gist?

 

I agree w/ those who are tired of this thread. I'm not going to change anybody's mind, and I can't state my position any more clearly than I already have.

I'm out. I've enjoyed it.