Diesel finally coming in 3rd gen ....

Based off what I’ve seen from a lot of diesel truck owners, a Cummins sticker and some black exhaust really turns their sisters on.

 

In the lucky club with you. If my 2017 Tacoma Limited were totaled today, I'd get a ride to my Toyota dealer, and buy a 2019 Tacoma Limited.

 

You never post but when you do it is in reply to someone complaining hmmmmm why do you care?

 

I didnt realize it was a weekly thing. It does come up often for it to just be rumors tho, i can see why someone would be annoyed with seeing these threads. Like if there were a bigfoot sighting claim on the forum every week, or someone claimed they are bringing back the supra.

 

Spotted a Bigfoot driving a new Supra yesterday........ crazy!

 

Oh...so salty today!

Look, we're probably pretty close on agreement for most things, so let's clarify a few things, Then if you want to be salty, be salty.

SCR (DEF) has improved efficiency. That ain't my opinion, it's fact. Because the manufacturer is able to tune the engine any way it wants to, and then allow the SCR and DEF to take care of the pollutants, most manufacturers have discovered better fuel mileage (compared to other smog-reduction systems). Studies have shown that it improves mileage by up to 5%. So it does add MPG....and look, don't take the Diesel Guru's word for it, look it up. It's not even conserved a topic of debate in the diesel world.

https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/sites/default/files/MB10033.pdf
First paragraph of page 2. 2010 was when they started using for the C&C trucks and industrial applications. Passenger HD trucks followed in 2013.

Having had a pre-scr systems and a post scr system on the same exact truck, I can attest that this is the case. Less regent, better mileage, and I have to spend a couple buck every 6K miles or so.

Now the post 2007 emissions got scary. Ford tried to get a jump on it a had a series of spectacular failures (the 6.4 and 6.0 power strokes). Ram went to pure EGR/DPF with no SCR between 2007 and 2012 and had a shitload of issues. While the resulting SCR systems had early teething pains in 2013 and 2015, they have become more and more reliable.
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They are however costly additions and provide more potential service and failure points. But the new tier of SCR treatments will soon be here and they will be much less complex, less expensive and will reduce the service requirements. They are essentially dropping the EGR and going to a greatly simplified SCR/NOx treatment system for exhaust after treatment. Example:

https://www.ccjdigital.com/engine-o...economy-with-after-treatment-system-redesign/

So every three years or so, the systems are becoming less complex, more efficient and more reliable.

As to your last question - unless you are hauling and or towing with a HD truck - modern diesel engines make ZERO sense. There is NO benefit.

Toodles,

the Diesel Guru

 

The MB passenger diesel offered here was a disaster. But there are a bunch of reasons why that we could dig deeper into...and for the most part, it's the same reason why the VW systems without SCR were such a disaster.

We have a very large fleet of diesel equipment and trucks - crew, bobs, 10 wheelers, transports, supers, loaders, dozers, pavers, rollers, graders, blah, blah. We went through the dark ages between 2007 and 2012 with most of our engines - be it International, Detroit or Cummins. The pre-scr systems had a shit ton of class-action lawsuits and buy backs.

Since 2013 or so, things have gotten markedly better. The new systems have become - well, reliable. MPGs have gone up and service interval have gone down. We had a tech talk with Cummins last year and they gave us a peek at their new tech without EGR, relying simply on a single unit for exhaust after treatment.

So I forgive you for the assumption that my experience was anecdotal. And rest assured, the bitter taste of the poorly thought out, executed and rushed to market emissions systems, from 10 or so years ago also linger in my mouth.

 

You realize VAG and Mercedes combined sold over 50% of diesel passenger vehicles in the US right?? I know the market has changed but circa 2012 when these "myths" about diesels emerged VAG was by far the market leader in diesel cars. So you're completely contradicting yourself by saying the fears of emissions compliant diesels are unfounded then immediately saying over 50% of them were a "disaster" lol.

I get that its apparently possible to add these emissions systems and not royally fuck up reliability (as you've experienced on the commercial side), but when over half the market for passenger vehicles with diesels suddenly becomes way less reliable its silly to call that a "myth".

 

Has a Diesel Toys been brought up yet? If so, please disregard.

 

Looking back at what I wrote, I can see how the context may be lost. Let me reset the context....and there is an outright gaffe in my original statement. The modern dark times started in 2007.5 and lasted into 2012. I've made that point in another post (#328), but in the one you quoted, it is easy to see where it looked like I was claiming that things got better since 2007. Shit, that's when things got bad...really bad.

Then if you want to continue to argue the point, we can take it to PM.

In 2018, anyone who thinks adding DEF (the fluid, not the injection system and tank) is a PITA or adds significant cost is suffering under a delusion. That's legitimate fake news. From your earlier post it appears that you thought I was referring to adding the entire DEF system. Nope. I was referring to people who fear adding the actual fluid or think its a considerable cost. They use it as a counterpoint to NOT buy a diesel.

Likewise, anyone who still has an unreasonable fear of the emissions needs to realize this isn't 2008 anymore. Things have gotten better and continue to get better. The non-scr systems royally fucked up people's perception of diesels and from an engineering standpoint was arguably a gaffe for the ages. But those of us who run them and rely on them have seen steady dramatic improvement and we see the manufacturers improving on those improvements.

 

Haaa, seriously, you think that adding DEF increases mileage? Is it turbo fluid? I had no idea that cat piss and water were even combustible. Why am I not just pissing in my tank? DEF will not increase your mpg. Not running DEF and having to meet emission requirements will undoubtedly hurt your mileage. Please stick to facts.

 

Sun God:

Adding DEF is an inarguable efficiency increase over the previous iteration of the emissions systems that fucked up the diesel scene between 2007 and 2012. It was a noticeable improvement over the EGR/DPF systems with no SCR. There is no argument there. You can be as nasty as you want and insulting as you want to as many people as you want, but that doesn't make you right. It just makes you depressing to engage.

Nothing compares to the efficiency of pre-2007 emissions diesels - you know before they stuck on DPF and NOx cans and made the engines breathe their own farts. Is that the point you are trying to make? If so, then we are in agreement.

 

Several of my car racing buddies bought diesel trucks to pull their cars with. One complaint they had that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the cost of oil changes.

I just looked up the max towing capacities for the 2019 Colorado diesel, and 2019 Tacoma 3.5. 7,700 vs 6,800. 900 pound difference.

 

That's because in a mid-size pickup, there are other limitations to towing than the powertrain. It's easy to build a gas engine that can handle more than a mid-size pickup - not so much when you're talking about a truck capable of towing 15k+.

 

I suggest we start a GO FUND ME PAGE for anyone who hates their truck, and just will not part ways with it..I mean everyone is doing it now, HELP I GOT FIRED FOR LYING I need $600K!

 

That is exactly my point, you strip down a diesel engine with out the emissions nonsense, and you undoubtedly have a source of power. The problem is that with the modern diesel engines to comply to epa standards, you lose all the benefits, and the high fuel price remains. When saddled with the same emission requirements, there is no real advantage over gasoline. There is a reason that manufactures are not jumping into the world for the few that would be crazy enough to buy one.

In the end it won't matter anyway. Soon we will all be running off electric motors and you can get all the torque you ever dreamed of.

 

Anecdotal evidence time!

One of our work trucks is a diesel Chevy 3500, I believe it's a 2014. It tows and hauls like a dream, that's what it was built for. It uses a jug of DEF every 1000 miles about, so at $15-20 extra every 1000 miles isn't that much but that is at least an extra $2,250 over the 150k miles the truck has.

The issue is when the system itself has issues, which is a regular occurrence. My favorite is when it thinks the DEF tank is empty (when it isn't) and you get the count down until you are speed limited to 65mph, then 55mph, then 5mph.

Overall it's manageable for work use, but would be more of a hassle than it's worth for personal use.

 

Thanks for taking the time to explain it you obviously have more actual experience with them, I just know what I saw from the mass migration away from diesels running DEF systems from my fleet customers. I'm not familiar with the recent changes that apparently are far better than before, this gives me hope the diesel isn't totally dead so I won't write it off.

But maybe you can clear something up for me then, I'm shopping for a new Sprinter (or Promaster) myself and pretty much wrote off the diesel as from the experience of my friend who has a 2017 model he can't take his to Baja, apparently the quality of diesel down there fucks too much with his emissions systems. Our other buddy with a 2006 model has no such problem. So I was going to go with a GAS engine to be safe.

Do you know anything about the new NEW mercedes diesels?? Are they still crap? Am I right to write off the diesel model or do you think I should still consider it?? My buddy's 2017 only averages like 15mpg and I think the gas model Promaster would get like 12-13mpg so it didn't seem like it was worth risking going for the diesel. I'd much rather be in a Sprinter but I'm obviously scared of modern diesels