Roof Rack Design and Fabrication Weekend 5-6 Progress ;)

Yep sounds like you need a 2nd gen in there with one of our shark fins. I am just glad I don't have to deal with it on any level.

 

@Doozy4212 hoping you can post pics of the camper shell mount feet...don’t mean to pester, just a friendly reminder request.

 

Oh crap, I’m sorry man!

 

I am also looking at options for shims that can help angle the feet to account for bad tracks.

The fact of the matter is if those tracks aren’t close flat they are installed wrong. Lots of leers have been installed wide and backwards lately

 

@Doozy4212 thanks for the pictures. I’m having a hard time understanding how those mounts are adjustable to compensate for the rake/slope/curvature on the shell’s roof? They look to be a ridge mount just like Prindu’s.

 

@Doozy4212 Didn’t see this post when I responded. I can confirm that nearly all Snugtops have rake/curvature/slope on the roof that would not allow the tracks to be mounted absolutely flat no matter where they are mounted.

Roof rack manufactures are going to need to account for this, i.e. where the camper shells like Snugtops don’t allow for it or if ARE or Leer add them in a less desirable spot....once the camper shell manufacture mounts the tracks at the factory there is no turning back, so this becomes a rack manufactures problem to solve. asking someone to remount the tracks in a more desirable spot on the roof and somehow fill in the holes from where is was originally mounted isn’t going to sit well with folks. Yakima,Thule, Frontrunner, and Rhino rack have all solved the problem by having rake adjustability in their rack mount feet. As does Smittybilt with their universal adjustable feet mounts that I ended up using.

Have a look at some of the Prindu threads and you will see that a large number of the camper shell vendors and models pose this problem. Using shims as the solution is going to be a nightmare for you guys as you’ll likely be needing to create custom shim angles for each individual client’s topper. Again looking at the Prinsu threads, some need 2 washers to shim, others need 5, some up to 8-10, etc, etc. I spoke directly with Zach (Prinsu designer) and he admitted the rigid mount design was a flawed design point for the camper shell rack but wasn’t in a position to change the design to add an adjustable rake due to cost and having an already set price point on the racks. Zach did end up refunding me the money for the 4 Prinsu mounts as I view the washer/shim solution as unacceptable. Used the money to cover the cost of the Smittybilt adjustable feet I found.

I really suggest solving this problem out the gate with a solid design. Don't repeat the Prinsu path of having a half baked solution that detracts from an otherwise great rack. It's Not a difficult problem to solve as SmittyBilts mounts show there is at least one workable design solution. There are other design examples to solve this problem as well, with these being the best design I’ve seen but too expensive for my blood: https://www.rokmen.com/drop-down-aluminum-tailgate-w-storage-compartment-562.html

The ROKMEN PRO Universal Rack Mount is the most versatile rack mount currently available. With adjustment for both height as well as rake there is nothing this mount can't handle. Raise or lower your rack or load bar from the mounting point easily, as well as adjust for a sloped roof or uneven mounting points. Constructed of billet 6061 Aluminum for strength as well as corrosion prevention.

 

You and @Casper66 need to stop that...

 

The problem with a universal solution is that it actually fits nothing perfectly, few things well, and a couple of things okay.

Accounting for the angle across an arc that’s less than 60.00” wide (in our application) nets a small degree of change to parallel.

Using a bucket of water, some rope and waiting until the sun was at just the right level we were able to use the technology of our forefathers to engineer an apparatus that not only corrects the varying pitch issue but does so in a way that adheres to what we will never waiver on and that’s the strength of our brackets.

It was pretty simple by engineering standards:

Width of not flat camper shell multiplied and divided a few times by the straightness of our load bars. Take that number and subtract the given tire pressure for a real off road rig with knobby tires. Take that number and add to it the amount of water left in the bucket after the dog was done drinking from it and you have 3-8 degrees.

We have the bracket thanks to some really smart guys on Tacoma World.

 

@Doozy4212 You'll be surprised the how much a very small degree rake with a non-adjustable mount ends up pulling up on the roof tracks to the point of where when you tighten the bolts down the track begins to lift off the roof, thus compromising its water tight seal on the track roof screws (I know this from first hand experience...scraping off silicone from each mount hole and resealing is a time consuming and not fun task).

I don't view a rake adjustment on the mount feet as universal solution that comes with compromises and that is some how is applicable to only certain installation scenarios. Designed/done correctly it should yield absolute perfection for all installation scenarios. Take for example the SmittyBilt mounts, it allows for a perfect fit with extreme rake, slight rake or no rake at all.

At the end of the day you all make the decision on what's right for your product. I get you're all excited to get this rack to market as quickly as possible, but my advice is to take it slow and design all aspects correctly out the gate...which I see you guys doing with much of the feedback you're receiving. I'm throwing out caution on a decision likely to come back to bite you and I'm just passing along feedback from real world experience from my Prinsu install (as well as my brother's and several, and I mean several, other TW members I assisted that all had the same problem to overcome). I just hate seeing a company with a promising product repeat the mistakes of another as the end result will be the same. Again, have a look at FrontRunner, Yakima, Thule, and Rhino Rack....all have rake adjustments and have done it in a way that yields perfection for all installation scenarios and with compromises to none.

Anyway, my feedback is given and wishing you all the best with getting what looks to be a solid rack product to market. I'm not one to say "I told you so" after the fact.

 

I think if I am not mistaken that degree shim would go in-between the part that mounts to the rack and the one that mounts to the track. That being said looking at the options you posted both seem big for what they are trying to accomplish which is a rack where the cross bars are barely off the deck sitting extremely low and streamlined. Which those mounts though they will work seem too tall for what they are trying to accomplish.

 

I'm not suggesting they use those mounts, rather showing them as examples and suggesting they design a rake adjustable mount that fits their application.

 

I agree with you. It's going to be a tricky fitment from one topper to the next and the issue is compounded when you factor in how critical it is for the topper load bars to align with the cab load bars so that the load deck is usable without frustration. Nothing worse than throwing sheet goods up there from Home Depot and catching a lip half way through the push. It's like walking into a door you thought was open.

@CttAznRanger is actually the member that provided us with drawing of a two piece system that looks like it addresses the issue in a way that I would still feel comfortable saying "yeah our racks will hold that" and know that when we ship product to you it's ready to go on and use that weekend.

My biggest fear in all of this is dropping the ball on something that turns excitement into buyers remorse with an oversight that was so easy to eliminate in the beginning stages. We've built assembly jigs for sorting hardware to make sure everything is packaged for each rack. We scoured the internet for packaging that would keep a roof rack from being damaged in transit and submitted that packaging to UPS so that if there ever is an issue it is resolved with no money lost on either party because it qualifies for their insurance.

We spent a lot of time on the cab mounts and threw so many of them in the trash can it's ridiculous just to get it right. Once they were exactly what we wanted we added stuff to them to make them stronger, give some adjustability without compromising the load capacity, and making sure that the holes and grooves didn't whistle or cause noise.

The rack for the topper was easy. It's just an adapted CAD drawing of the xL with the changes needed to make it flow with the design of the cab mounted solution. When it comes to the mounts....I think that is something that evolves over time. The solution that we have for it now is very good. It's adjustable. It accounts for angle. It will be strong. We're sourcing .750" 6062 aluminum to make it happen.

@Doozy4212 bars we got lucky on. Flat as we could have asked for. On toppers that don't have pre-installed bars on top that solution will most likely be our default because you'll be placing our suggested mounting bars on the roof as part of the installation. For the ones that already have bars installed...we will be walking guys through a sequence to determine if the flat solution will work. In the applications where that is not the case upgrading to the adjustable bracket becomes the solution.

The closer to the middle (and closer together) the mounting bars are the flatter it will be. That's just the nature of the design of the toppers. The ones further out will be problematic for sure.

What I really appreciate most is that you took the time to make that post. It brings to light a known issue and even if we hadn't considered it we could fall flat on our face without that kind of input. This rack was born here, and you improved it here along with so many other badass TW members. This is OUR rack and I am proud as I can be of where it came from and how it got here. Love this place.

Micah

 

Sorry! I'm still new!!! Hahahaha

 

Haha, you fixed it, so all good. Time to continue building!

 

I think this statement says a lot! I went with a certain company when ordering my shocks because they custom tune them to your application. Having that conversation and a company that cares about making sure you get what you need to best fit your application says a lot. Not just hey here is something hope it works you may have to modify it but that's not on us.

 

When it comes to toppers with existing bars, there IS another idea I have... If you want to hear it that is...

 

we welcome all

 

@upTOPoverland yep finding a mount design that accounts for rake AND also allows for height adjustment to match the cab racks makes for a challenge. I went thru the exact same thing when searching for a solution for my Prinsu as I have their cab rack as well. I can't tell you how many different mounts I attempted to use to solve the problem. Stumbling upon the SmittyBilt mount was a relief as it allows for rake and height adjustment at a reasonable cost....had I not found this mount, my next step was going to be to fabricate my own design. I did need to modify the SmittyBilt mount slightly to get it to exactly align with the cab rack....it was a simple cut to allow a bit lower adjustment.

Your idea of "we will be walking guys through a sequence to determine if the flat solution will work. In the applications where that is not the case upgrading to the adjustable bracket becomes the solution." is a good one but it won't scale very well. (1) it will require direct customer service interaction (this is going to cost money from a people resource perspective) and (2) its going to cause the end client steps and additional wait time that could be avoided with a single solution that addresses all installation use cases (the purchasing flow from a client perspective is something to think about as you can lose a client with a complicated purchase experience).

 

Direct customer interaction is exactly what we want, it's the goal. The end game. If were at all possible to have a conversation, even if only through email, with each and every person that purchases a rack from us that would make me happier than anything. The lifestyle that comes with all of this....meeting people, swapping stories, learning about what they do with the stuff they make.....that is what we are all about.

There are two ways to buy a suit. You go to Dillards and you get what's on the shelf. It fits how it fits.
You go to a tailor. You get the suit that fits you. Whether we sell 1 rack, 100 or 1,000 this will never be something we put in a box and hope it fits. Hope is not a tactic.