The Saga Continues... - POLL

Thanks! I appreciate it, it’s pretty sad how far down quality has dropped on many products these days. Good luck on your problems with Ford as well!

 

Well after talking again today with Toyota Corp, they initiated discussion of replacing the vehicle since it's had so many problems. Good news at this point, the case has been assigned a steady case manager and I will be talking with them tomorrow about the vehicle. As tough as it's been, I do have to give them kudos for coming to the table that they feel the vehicle has had many, many problems and that a replacement could be warranted.

 

that sounds promising. good job @Zoop

 

Thanks! I'm hoping all parties can work amicably and come to a resolution smoothly and quickly.

 

Just stand firm, but cool and calm. I can tell you from the inside looking out, the guys that are always cool get taken care of well. If you come in acting like an ass, your priority just dropped. You will get told, "We have to make a few phone calls, we will be in touch". Do you think those phone calls are getting made that day? Likely NO.
If you are acting like a human being, you will get treated like a human being.

 

Thanks for the advice! It really is true, much appreciated.

 

be careful of words like "kind-of", "could be", "should be".........the only word that is legally binding is "shall"......so get them to say the vehicle "shall" be looked and and if found defective, "shall be" replaced

 

It sounds like at this point, we will be delving into the history and what has had to be replaced/repaired to this point. They may shuffle me into arbitration but I'll know more when I speak with them tomorrow. I agree, they can "feel" as though the vehicle should be replaced, but until they confirm it will/is going to be replaced, it's not over!

 

Just got off the phone with the case manager, we elaborated on the case notes and it is going to go into a Toyota review process that is outside of both lemon law it's arbitration phase. I should get a confirmation it has entered the review process in the next few days and a judgement on the vehicle by Toyota as to whether they will replace it with a 2020 model (I bought my 2017 in 2016 and he agreed that request was reasonable) in 30-45 days or so. I'm hoping the review dept. reaches out to me so I can send them video of the electrical issues as well. The case mgr was thorough I believe in noting all of the issues, time out of service, number of service visits, parts replaced but not documented, etc, which is nice to see from a manufacturer/service associate. Worst case scenario they reject it and the saga will continue, best case scenario they replace it with the 2020 and tag a 10yr/125,000 extended warranty on it.

Here's to hoping they do the right thing and replace it!
Thanks everybody for your insights on this thread, much appreciated!

 

When you say replace with a 2020 model are you saying that they will give you a new one at no additional cost?

 

I hope it will be to replace it with same config, keep paying what I owe. If it is a direct replacement with no additional cost, I will still lose about $1,100-1,200 on undercoat/rust protection/other items. Took about 40 hours to create all my documentation, timelines, etc. In addition to that, time and PTO for 15 visits to the dealer for repairs alone so far, racked up 2,500+ miles riding in loaners. With one more visit still to be scheduled for more repairs (though this is going to be pending Toyota's return of decision at this point).

I attempted to go through the dealership a few weeks ago and they came back with a trade-in offer which I would have to add $12,000 more on top of what I owe, which I declined.

I will know the details if they approve and can update then (about 30 or so days).

 

I was doing some digging around under the hood tonight and found my passenger side injector seal pooched out and leaking... add that to the list.





Haven’t figured out what sensor this is but it’s on top of that injector bank, seeping covering half the top cover:





Makes me curious as to why so many seals are having problems on this truck.

 

Worst case scenario they reject it and the saga will continue, best case scenario they replace it with the 2020 and tag a 10yr/125,000 extended warranty on it.

Look zoop, I'm going to make this a pretty long post, I'll probably be banned for it anyway, since this is a fanboy forum and no one here wants to hear that Tacoma's aren't perfect gifts from heaven. But I don't care since I've decided in the last week that I'm going to make the dealer repair whatever I can and sell the damn thing.

1. These trucks are junk. That goes for all 3rd gens. Here's a screenshot from my consumer reports account of the 2016 tacoma. Bear in mind that this data is based on surveys from consumer reports customers. There's a reason many call them "turd gen" (of course, you can't do that here because you'll hurt fanboy feelings)



A 2020 is not going to be better for the simple fact that Toyota is a company that is completely lacking in conscience or any semblance of loyalty or goodwill toward their customers. You are just a number to them, something to add to their quarterly earnings.

Toyota does NOT redesign their defective designs or fix anything until people start dying and lawsuits start getting filed. Case in point, the unintended acceleration scandal. My 2017 has many of the same problems you've reported, and others you haven't experienced yet. Most of the problems have recurred after repair attempts. If you want to pick up where you left off and start this nightmare all over again, yeah, get yourself another 3rd gen tacoma.

2. The dealer is not trying to help you by mentioning lemon law. They are trying to help themselves. A lemon law case is completely arbitrated between you and the manufacturer, meaning the dealer finally gets you out of their hair. Any promises the dealer makes regarding this are completely bogus and unenforceable. They have NOTHING to do with the lemon law case.

3. Part of the lesser known secret about lemon law buybacks is there is a major deduction for your use of the vehicle. You have about the same mileage I do, which means your lemon law buyback could be 20k or under, depending on the state you're in. Also, Toyota gets to take the car and sell it at auction to a dealer who will unload it on some other poor sucker. They might actually even make some money on the deal, compared to making repeated repairs that aren't going to solve anything, because we're dealing with defective designs, not necessarily defective parts (this is very important and I'll get back to it shortly).

4. Toyota is not going to do what you mentioned that rep said (replace your truck with a 2020). No way. This is literally the highest level of corporate intervention possible for a carmaker in such an instance. This is the sort of treatment you might get with Mercedes, for example, particularly if you purchased an expensive AMG that turned out to be a total lemon. Or if you're a pro ball player or other famous guy who can light up twitter and make the company really miserable if they don't make him happy. Most luxury carmakers, let alone regular manufacturers, won't do this. Toyota has a proven track record of treating their customers like dirt. They are not legally obligated to do any such thing and they will surely not do so. This is a company known for not doing warranty repairs because you're five miles past the bumper to bumper. Think they're about to shell out 35k for a new truck just to make you happy temporarily? They know their 2020's are bad too, and you'll be back at the dealer with a myriad number of issues that they won't want to fix. So buying you a new truck doesn't do squat for Toyota.

5. On to the meat of the issue. WHY YOU ARE BEING TREATED LIKE CRAP AT THE DEALER AND/OR TOYOTA, WHY YOUR CAR IS ALMOST NEVER REALLY FIXED, THE THINGS FANBOYS WILL NEVER TELL YOU. THIS will explain a lot of the behavior you've probably experienced.

I learned this through a lot of digging and reading and talking to people who know how carmakers operate. You see, most carmakers operate on the basis of "we want to do the minimum necessary to make this guy go away, the minimum we legally have to". This sort of philosophy is very common among non-luxury carmakers. I actually had extremely good experiences with Subaru, but you'll find that more common with low volume labels that can't afford a mass exodus from their brand. Toyota sells millions of cars a year. You're one unhappy customer who will be replaced with two new suckers in the next five minutes. On top of that, you've also been marked a "problem customer" (secret dealer code for the type of asshole who actually wants his car fixed, the nerve!).

Anyway, when you go to the dealer for service, a carefully managed script goes into effect. The service adviser, who is not a technician and generally has little to no actual service knowledge of any kind, is actually just a commissioned salesman, same as the guy who sold you the car. His job is to sell you transmission flushes, wiper blade replacements, and 45k mile services. When you come in there with a difficult to diagnose problem, he's getting diddly squat in commission and it's also tying up a tech, who is also paid flat rate, who could be making money for both of them by selling a bogus one thousand buck service to some old lady with a highlander.

The script is supposed to go like this. This is the secret part most people have no idea about. If it's really just a defective part, something that's a widely known issue that the manufacturer recognizes and is easy to replace, the part is generally replaced, the dealership bills Toyota for a crapload of money, and everyone is happy.

BUT, and this is a big but, your warranty only covers defective parts. It doesn't cover defective design from the manufacturer. Again, design defects ARE NOT COVERED BY YOUR WARRANTY. When people start dying, the carmaker gives up this position and issues a recall to head off more catastrophic problems for itself. That's why you always hear about "redesigned parts" as part of a recall. Again, because they HAVE TO in order to cover their own ass. THIS is why you and so many others keep hearing that frustrating "operating as designed". This really means "the manufacturer doesn't give a shit about its customers and designed cheap, crappy parts that don't work very well, but they're basically sloppily designed to not work very well so there isn't a defective part, just a shit design from a carmaker that couldn't give two hoots about you or your satisfaction". They can't tell you that, so they say "operating as designed" IN HOPES THAT YOU WILL GO AWAY, AND STAY AWAY!

Because, when you come back for the same issue, things get interesting for the dealer. Remember how you've heard that the dealer makes most of its money in the service department? Well, that's when they do their job right and follow the script correctly. Carmakers have designed incentives to ensure dealers don't keep replacing crappily designed parts with more crappy parts that won't fix anything because only a redesign will solve the problem in the first place. So the service adviser's job is to CONVINCE you to NOT COME BACK for that same issue once he drops the holy "operating as designed" excuse. If you keep coming back, the carmaker basically says "well you guys aren't following the script, aren't convincing your idiot customers to just love their turd gens as they are and go away and put 20k of mods on them to make up for how crappy they are, so we will penalize you". Penalties can range from less reimbursement for repeat service visits for the same issue, to outright denial of payment of any kind, depending on that particular carmaker's policies. So by innocently coming back, expecting someone to finally hear you and fix your POS car, you've literally transformed the dealership's biggest money maker (the service department) into a negative drain, as far as your particular case is concerned. That's why you get the vicious attitudes. Not because of the bullshit excuses the tacoma fanboys are giving you "oh, just treat the dealer respectfully and kneel in front of him and worship his name and he will return the favor and fix your truck". You need to remember that this forum has a lot of actual service advisers and techs who post here. They want to get paid, they don't give a crap about your truck's problems. They are perfectly happy to turn you into that "problem customer" to make you go away so they can go back to selling hundred dollar wiper blade installs. They literally hate customers who persist in trying to get their crappy trucks fixed.

Bottom line man, you want a truck, go buy a real truck like an F150. They have some bad design years but also a ton of extremely good years. Go to consumer reports and carcomplaints.com and find the best years for whatever vehicle you are considering. The F150's a real truck that won't require 20k in upgrades just to work semi-properly. Heck, you'll even get better ride quality, power, interior space, and gas mileage from that V8 sucker. Kind of ironic. Toyota's whiz-bang high tech V6 gets worse gas mileage than pretty much every modern V8 made today. Don't reward Toyota's laziness and arrogance by buying another one of their lemons. Their reliability myth is based completely off of a couple good years for the Camry and Corolla, btw, and some completely unrelated overseas vehicles like the Hilux. Many of their US products, especially recently, are having a ton of problems.

 

Btw, here is a link to the Yelp page for the vaunted "customer experience center" in Torrance. You know, where people are always told to call to get that unruly dealer straightened out or get the Toyota CEO to personally repair your vehicle:

https://www.yelp.com/biz/toyota-customer-experience-center-torrance

Pretty illuminating. This one says it all:

"I will add to the already long list of 1 star reviews for Toyota and their so called "Customer Experience Center". This center is not really there to help customers. It's just a front to redirect customer questions, concerns and complaints back to the local dealerships. Toyota has no intention at all of helping or assisting customers. Every answer you will get from them will either be "they don't know" or some carefully scripted advice to return to a dealership. I strongly recommend anyone who is considering purchasing a Toyota to reconsider. Toyota has gotten to the point where they will have to be sued to get anywhere with them and to me that is not a company you want to do business with. I will not be purchasing another Toyota, this will be my last."

This second one, too. Btw, I've literally been thru these exact scenarios with this place. One of them was literally over a $5 lubrication issue. Think Toyota cares about you?

"What is the meaning or use of customer service if there is No assistance, and one is simply told "We can't help you the extended warranty expxpired 6 days ago and that's it. And thank you for being loyal customer" And then when one is asked is there anything else "we" can help you with and one inquiries with whom they might speak to for assistance?. The response was "You have reached someone who speaks for the official position of Toyota, there is no one else, that is it." ...oh and "again thank you for being a loyal customer"."

 

"You have reached someone who speaks for the official position of Toyota, there is no one else, that is it."

Also want to add regarding this canned line you will always get from their worthless customer experience center: Those people who are telling you this are making minimum wage. Another reviewer noted that he found ads for positions at this center for customer service work, paying minimum wage. Here in Bellevue WA, a McDonald's cashier makes $15 an hour, far above minimum wage. Your local Walmart will let you talk to a real manager for pretty much any issue you need to escalate, because their philosophy is to keep the customer happy, since they did a study and found out the average loyal Walmart shopper might spend a quarter million dollars at the chain over the course of their life. Pretty sad when Walmart cares more about you than Toyota. Do not buy the crappy trucks from this corporation and reward their behavior and attitude.

 

Let the hate go man it will eat you up inside.

 

It looks like we both live in Washington, where the lemon usage "fee" is: (cost of car)*(mileage of first incident)/120,000.
In my case the first problem was around 4k miles. My lemon will cost me about $1000. Depreciation for my Ford runs about $15,000 for the 2.5 years it's been so far. I think I'll take the $1k hit...

In OP's case, his first claim is the first day he bought his truck. He may be out what? $5 total? And get 2.5 years of free depreciation. To me that's worth the hassle of driving to the dealer 15 times.

Keep being a "problem customer", you spent $40k for a new trouble free truck. Make sure that's what you end up with in the end. One way or another.

 

Good work! Assuming I end up having to go that route, a lawyer informed me my state works in a similar fashion, first problem was the day I took it home, turned around, drove back and pointed it out. 15 miles on ODO. I don't want to have to keep this up, but I will. Because I agree with the principles you stated, I'll take it there if I have to, which would calculate to be $1.50 to replace it.

Bad products and bad customer service are rampant everywhere these days, buyer beware, being civil, and documentation goes a long way in seeking a resolution.

 

be interesting to see what they say about that and how they plan on dealing with it......probably sticking out so you can see there is a seal there....hahahaha