TSS Recall -- New document from Toyota regarding trucks with "Pro" grills or lifts

You sure bout that? The Federal Highway Administration literally helps maintain interstate highways, and the federal government gives funds to states for roads, bridges etc. regardless of which level of gov pays, it all comes from various taxes.

I definitely didn’t complain about the gov taking rights away. I wasn’t defending or arguing any point about gov versus individual rights. I wasn’t making a political point. You missed the point completely. I believe the one complaining about gov interference....was you in your original post. MY only point was that to complain about gov infringement on personal rights while at the same time accepting the benefits of government isn’t fair. But let’s end it here, agree to disagree, and move on.

I just came home from a great day of fishing, I hope you did something fun this weekend as well.

 

The FHWA is funded through tire taxes, truck/trailer sales taxes, heavy vehicle use taxes, and fuel taxes which haven't changed since 1993 and haven't been adjusted for inflation.
Only since 2008 has the trust fund needed help from congressional allocation.

 

After some finessing I was able to get the recall done, dealer didn’t want to do it at first because I have 265/75/16 duratracs and a knock off pro grill. When I go and look at my sensor though, it doesn’t even look like they touched it. Isn’t there supposed to be a cushion put around the sensor or something? Here’s a pic for reference

 

Not have the luxury of adaptive cruise control. That's what you'd do.

 

It's best not to do this recall if you are not having any issues. They called me in for this recall and told me they had no option but to disable the PCS if they did the recall and I had the option to turn it back on when I drove. I prefer not to turn on any other buttons except the start button when I get in my truck, so I opted out of them performing the recall. Funny thing is they already calibrated my sensor when I brought it in after I installed my faux trd pro grill as it kept telling me the PCS was off back in April. It's silly they say they can't calibrate it with a lift or aftermarket grill.

 

I stay interested in this as I might buy a 2019 or a 2020 down the road and want to know what the mod limitations are when TSS is involved. So I considered what you said and chewed on it for a while. I also read through this document, apologies if this has already been posted:

https://www.toyota.com/content/ebrochure/CFA_TSS_Precautions.pdf

I wonder whether whoever willingly did the sensor calibration when you brought the truck in for the PCS error even noticed that you had an aftermarket grill on a non-Pro. Maybe your grille was just a really great copy.

As for the brochure above, it lists instances in which "the vehicle angle/stance is changed" and thus the PCS "may not operate properly", so I guess Toyota has been advertising the limitations at least since last year.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that just because the MMW radar that the PCS uses gets successfully calibrated, that doesn't necessarily mean the system will work like it's supposed to. "Calibration" might actually mean alignment and calibration in this case. Alignment ensures the position of the sensor is correct and allows it to receive the reflected radar waves. Normally, calibration means that the measurement the device is providing is being compared to a known good standard and must be within certain allowances. That measurement is likely the radar wave frequency, but could also be radar cross section for a standard object at a standard distance. My understanding of the way PCS works is it measures at least an object's size, relative velocity, and location. The system makes an assumption about the location of the radar sensor relative to the road in order to constantly run all those data points through an algorithm. If the radar is located somewhere substantially different relative to the road, or the signal is obstructed, the sensor provides bad data or the system provides a bad output. Garbage in, garbage out. I was reading that even small changes in the angles impact the system function. So that is how lifts, oversized tires, and aftermarket bumpers can prevent the system from operating correctly. But then again so can "sporty driving", rain, fog, uneven roads, and a bunch of other stuff listed in the brochure.

I think if a dealership executes the recall/bulletin work, they are in some way legally communicating to you that your PCS will function correctly after the work is done. And if you have a lift, geometrically speaking, it may not. And if you have an aftermarket bumper, it may block or interfere with the sensor. So they don't want to turn the truck back over to you and imply that your PCS works now.

Ultimately Toyota and the dealerships might be able to solve this problem by letting anyone with non-stock stuff that might interfere with PCS sign a waiver absolving everyone involved from liability in exchange for the recall/bulletin work being done. Much easier for them to either tell you they won't do the work, or will do it but set the default to disable the PCS. Plus even if you sign a waiver, someone else other than you might be involved in an accident with your truck and still be free to sue the dealership.

 

I still dont understand how a WATER INTRUSION SAFETY ISSUE becomes a release of liability if you have bigger tires. A failed part is a failed part. Just give it to me if you refuse to calibrate it. I can go somewhere else and pay for calibration. The fact that some dealers are just calibrating it PROVES THAT IT CAN BE CALIBRATED.

I also dont really buy that calibration doesnt mean calibration. Otherwise, why calibrate it?

Edit, measure your angle with a full payload towing a trailer. Now compare that angle to stock. Im sorry, but doing a 2 inch symmetrical lift is WAY LESS (zero) angle change than the rated approved angle changes.

 

There’s something satisfying about setting it at 80-85 and always stay a certain distance away from the car in front of you. You could actually be doing only 67 but you don’t even notice the difference

 

When the dealership says calibration, they may mean both alignment and calibration. That's all I meant, I might've said it poorly. I believe the alignment is verified and the radar is calibrated after many types of repairs in the front end area.

Calibration does mean calibration. It's a verification that the reading the radar is providing is accurate. That's all. Police radar guns are calibrated with tuning forks. I don't know how this type of radar is actually calibrated. But the radar isn't alone in the system. It just feeds raw, dumb data in. You want to ensure the data the radar feeds in is accurate, but if other variables are changed (position of the sensor relative to the ground), the system output changes. I don't think the dealership is saying they can't physically calibrate the radar, I think they're saying they can't guarantee the PCS will function correctly, in the limited circumstances where it can function correctly. Meaning it may not brake the vehicle at the appropriate time. A significant lift, for example, pretty much guarantees that the PCS will never function exactly as intended. Which is sort of a ridiculous statement anyway because so many other common environmental issues interfere with it.

Yeah it's silly that fixing a water intrusion issue leads down this path. But I think it comes back to the dealership's liability once they perform recall work. The water intrusion causes the recall to be issued, but I'm assuming doing the work incurs a liability issue for the dealership in providing you with a system that now "works". If you've introduced a lift between purchase and the recall, you've changed the equation and they can no longer vouch for the system.

I totally agree with your comment on towing. The brochure makes it sound like towing below the limit is ok but above, PCS won't work. Makes no sense.

I'm not advocating for the dealership position, I'm just saying that I can see how and why they may have come to it.

On your comparison between towing load changing the angle, and a symmetrical lift not changing it. You're right. But I'll exaggerate to try and make my point. Imagine a monster truck Tacoma with a two foot symmetrical lift. The sensor is now at least two feet higher off the ground. It's not going to see certain objects any more because they'll be literally below the radar if they're close enough to the truck. At some point between stock and a two foot lift, there is a point where the geometry changes enough to matter. We'd have to know all the precise details about the radar and the algorithm to know if a one or two inch lift matters, but I could see how it might, depending on how narrow the radar wave is and how the system determines what is an obstacle it needs to brake for.

 

Bring up a very valid point with the monster truck. Without knowing the specifics I would argue that the calibration (we're both talking alignment and calibration) would simply fail, it would be out of the tolerances of the "scanning area", which should be wide enough to be able to compensate for going uphill, downhill, turning left, if a clown sits in your passenger seat, any other variables a stock vehicle could encounter...

If you modify your truck to the point it cannot calibrate, then game over, can't be done. But we haven't reached that point with a 2 inch lift plus bigger tires since dealers have already calibrated the system.

Now, I can agree that the extra height will lessen the ability for the system to compensate, buts its not an autonomous vehicle. It's already not guaranteed to not run over bicyclists and no one expects that. It's nice when you don't kill people, but not expected to prevent it.
If by raising the truck 2 inches, I make the system start stopping 2 inches closer to another vehicle, well, the accident was going to happen anyway.

 

This cushion business is absurd. Wtf.

 

You can go to any Toyota dealer for warranty work. The dealer might say what you are thinking but not true. So if you are on a trip and one of your 5k services is due you can just take it to the nearest Toyota dealer and they will do it.

 

So here’s my take on the recall. I use radar cruise control on my truck everyday. I won’t stop using it, and I also don’t want to automatically be at fault if it erroneously brakes and causes a collision. The “fix” might seem trivial, being that it’s essential a foam poncho, but TSS sensors were being affected by moisture to the point they were faulty/disabled.

I let Toyota do the fix because now it’s documented and I can still use radar cruise and not have to worry if something goes wrong.

One of my biggest reasons for waiting for the 2018 was the TSS. It makes driving long distances a breeze.

I’ve attached pictures of the fix below. Sorry for the water droplets, I had just washed the car. Huh, I guess the poncho does work.

 

My dealer tech said its dealer specific. He also said they haven't turned down any recalls and they had overland vehicles in for it.

 

I've had some kinda pre collision warning come up when driving thru a torrential rain on I-4 a few months back. I'm talking a rain so hard people were pulling off on the emergency lane, and under bridges. The warning flashed on a couple times for a couple seconds. Didn't have the cruise on, and it didn't apply the brakes or anything.

Seems I've read this is normal under those conditions?

Got an appointment Monday at 2:00 for them to do what ever it is their gonna do.

Wondering if they'll give me any shit about my grill. Or if I really need to fuck with having them look at it.

 

Well, first of all you gotta watch out for those clowns in your passenger seat. Especially if they're friends or family.

I'm with you on almost everything. Yeah, PCS was never meant to be perfect, or autonomous like you said. It's really only designed to "work" in a fairly narrow sliver of circumstances. And I agree that if the PCS on a Pro is good to go, why not on your truck with a 2 inch lift? I think to really answer the question we would need to know the exact steps a tech would take to calibrate a radar. It may be that the calibration process (aside from verifying alignment) has nothing to do with the radar location. It may just be a measurement of whether or not the radar is actually pumping out the wavelength (or it could be read as frequency) that it is supposed to. So even on the two foot lift monster truck, the radar is calibrated to emit the correct signal, but the system itself, that interprets the signal, will not work when the geometry is changed. Also, any safety measure always comes with a huge buffer, right? So this may just be abundance of caution or just a way out of doing the recalls for everyone. Other folks are posting that dealerships are not being consistent so who knows what the actual logic is.

Wish a tech would speak up and tell us the procedures. I can't find a way to get to them without paying for a subscription or asking a dealership. Maybe I'll get curious enough to call the local service department and ask.

 

The actual procedures were posted on these forums in one of the many paged threads about this issue.

Boils down to parking on a perfectly level surface, and putting a metal plate (triangle I believe) a specific height above the level ground, directly in the centerline of the vehicle a very specific distance in front of the grill. Then running the scantool (I wanna call it techstream, can't remember) calibration.


Edit: also of course, there's a clear zone of anything around in front of the car.

Edit2: except the metal calibration plate

 

Gotcha. So this is interesting stuff. I'd read that one method of calibrating a MMW radar is via radar cross section, I wonder if that's what the calibration program does. The radar could provide an RCS reading off the triangle, which would pretty much be its surface area at the given distance. Then that reading could be compared to the known actual dimensions of the triangle. Only the person that wrote the calibration software code would know. I still see the problem with a lift or huge tires, because as the truck goes up higher the sensor is further from the triangle overall, and the RCS measurement changes (if that's what is being measured). Same deal for a bumper which may just obstruct the sensor or change the dimensions to the triangle. At the same time I get how this is infuriating if a Pro can be calibrated out and you have pretty much an identical lift on a non-Pro. Food for thought, maybe there is a different calibration program run for the Pro based on VIN, whether automatically or manually.

Anyway, appreciate the conversation. I always like stimulating the few brain cells that have managed to stick around after all the beer.

 

While true that the sensor would be closer or farther from the triangle with a direct 2 inch shift upwards, we're talking about like 10 feet (w-a-g) horizontal distance. Calculating that by hand the arctan of 2/120 is 0.95 degrees, so 1 degree angle change. I doubt an automotive sensor has that accuracy just from the expansional properties of a grill that is next to a hot engine.
As far as the distance change, pythagoreum theorem (spell that 5 times fast) were talking about 0.0139% of a change. I'll bet my favorite paperclip that an automotive sensor doesn't have the accuracy needed for brain surgery.

But yeah, probably different calibration based on model. Different mounting location, bracket mount probably.

I absolutely get it that Toyota doesn't want the liability. But they don't have a choice in my book, the sensor let's in water and brakes suddenly without warning. That could kill a bussful of orphan nuns and needs to get fixed. But it's BS to pass on the liability to the owner for getting tires.