What is Leather on Tacoma and How to Make it Vegan

erok81 · Jul 8, 2019

DWD484 said: ↑

Correct. Fossil fuels are byproducts of dead plants & animals. You stated “when possible”. What happens “when not possible”? Does that make it ok?
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Last time I checked fossil fuels arent made of freshly ground animals are they?

I feel like there might be a little difference between an animal that died of natural causes millions of years ago and one that lived a fairly miserable life and then got a bolt through its head.

Or do you really think those are the same?

Gen1FTMFW · Jul 8, 2019

erok81 said: ↑

Last time I checked fossil fuels arent made of freshly ground animals are they?

I feel like there might be a little difference between an animal that died of natural causes millions of years ago and one that lived fairly miserable life and then got a bolt through its head.

Or do you really think those are the same?
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The animals that died of natural causes probably suffered from starvation, dehydration etc. They probably died a slow and agonizing death. The bolt is pretty humane and quick in comparison.

12TRDTacoma · Jul 8, 2019

If you want vegan, buy a horse. It's about as green as you'll get.

Unless you consider riding on animals as a form of abuse, then in which case ride a bicycle, or just walk.

If you want to play you gotta pay, someone's gotta pay. It's like the old saying goes, "there's no such thing as a free lunch."

Paul631 · Jul 8, 2019

mjs90 said: ↑

Probably one of the saltiest threads I've seen. I like it
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This thread is lightly seasoned, 2015-2016 3rd Gen subforum was baccala in comparison

erok81 · Jul 8, 2019

Gen1FTMFW said: ↑

The animals that died of natural causes probably suffered from starvation, dehydration etc. They probably died a slow and agonizing death. The bolt is pretty humane and quick in comparison.
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You should read up on day about what goes on over a cows life. Hint...not much of it is humane.

Bob 216 · Jul 8, 2019

DWD484 said: ↑

Again, this goes back to half-assing it, Bob. If you make a choice, stick with it. Don’t cheat. Don’t make excuses. Believe in your choice & see it through. Don’t half-ass it.
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I really hope you're not a parent.

"Sorry Jimmy, you can't join the baseball team cause you're not batting a thousand."

erok81 · Jul 8, 2019

DWD484 said: ↑

Woah, slow down, sweetheart. I never said any of those things... but 10,000 year old dead animals & 10 day old dead animals are still dead animals.
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I’m just pointing out they aren’t the same that’s all.

They are both dead, yes that is correct. But what lead up to that is what makes them different.

cedarpangolin · Jul 8, 2019

I'm so late to this thread. I'm also so shocked that it's even a serious question. I'm also so Confused that society has people petrified of what vehicle they buy in case a remote trace of animal life was harmed....

What about the harm we cause fellow humans every day with words and deeds? What about the agricultural impact on taking away animals habitats as was mentioned very early on in the thread? What about the fact that animals die and are born countless times per day without you knowing, and it's called the circle of life?

I can somewhat wrap my head around someone not wanting to personally hunt and kill animals, or disliking hunting for sport, but come on... Avoiding certain vehicles because I might have trace animal byproducts? I mean, almost everything we buy has some sort of petrol or other earth mineral base that consists of the degraded matter that was once animals, fish, PEOPLE, plant life, etc. This whole paranoia thing is out of hand. I can't imagine living in fear like that. Life takes its course whether you eat beef or have a leather wrapped steering wheel... If anything, avoiding being a consumer of 90% of the available product is hurting your local economy and the people around you. How about worry more about people and less about animals that die on their own anyway?

Gen1FTMFW · Jul 8, 2019

erok81 said: ↑

You should read up on day about what goes on over a cows life. Hint...not much of it is humane.
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Subjecting myself to this intolerable thread has been far less humane than what those cows go through. Hint... still gonna put gas in my truck and eat those tasty sombitches.

Bob 216 · Jul 8, 2019

DWD484 said: ↑

Wow, Bob. Low blow. But sorry, no children. That assuming thing isn’t working out very well for you today, but at least you’re trying & that’s not half-assing it. Great job.
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What about that statement was an assumption? Also, which part was a low blow?

DWD484 · Jul 8, 2019

Bob 216 said: ↑

What about that statement was an assumption? Also, which part was a low blow?
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Ok, Bob. Good talk.

erok81 · Jul 8, 2019

Gen1FTMFW said: ↑

Subjecting myself to this intolerable thread has been far less humane than what those cows go through. Hint... still gonna put gas in my truck and eat those tasty sombitches.
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Cool. I don’t care what you eat or what you drive. That’s your choice. All I said is read up on something because you clearly have no idea. That’s all.

computeruser6 · Jul 8, 2019

Sequoia1321[OP] said: ↑

Hey Sir. I had read all those links. As I recall I told you, those were old links that I had gathered from a while back. They're not the most recent, and lots of new info has been coming out periodically. But yes, I read all of them before.
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I don't believe you; you very clearly cherry-picked key words that you saw from a few of them. Did you pay $36 to view the study behind the paywall? Does your sophistry know no bounds?

Sequoia1321 · Jul 8, 2019

computeruser6 said: ↑

I don't believe you; you very clearly cherry-picked key words that you saw from a few of them. Did you pay $36 to view the study behind the paywall? Does your sophistry know no bounds?
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It was a long time ago. I'm not sure which one you're talking about, or if it was changed. But no, I didn't pay $36.

computeruser6 · Jul 8, 2019

Sequoia1321[OP] said: ↑

It was a long time ago. I'm not sure which one you're talking about, or if it was changed. But no, I didn't pay $36.
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I've already linked to it a bunch of times but here's the wall of text that you wrote with your "research" and "evidence." Also, can you please elaborate on your points concerning your comparison of human bondage to eating meat and the use of government force to implement your ideals?

Sequoia1321[OP] said: ↑

I’m surprised to see the large number of civil responses, considering the earlier jokes and such. I read through all the posts, and although I don’t necessarily agree with the other side, I like that at least there is a more civil conversation that tries to make logical points. There are many comments so I’m just going to address some comments which will address more or less the other comments.

This is an important point and I agree. One common theme I noticed here from the other side is that this is the way it is, it is nature, natural, always been this way, etc. But if we didn’t change nature and the way things are then we wouldn’t make much progress. We wouldn’t have technology for example. Also, we are nature ourselves, so one may argue that it’s not unnatural when we change nature. However, the argument often is, and rightly, that tweaking nature can sometimes have unforeseen negative consequences. A possible example is the “barefoot” shoes I purchased recently that are designed to closer mimic a barefoot experience as opposed to a regular shoe with lots of padding and tighter fit. Somehow this more natural, minimal shoe seems to have made my feet feel better. It is claimed that our feet were not “designed” for the shoes most people wear today, and perhaps this is true. At the same time, if I’m going to do a heavy duty activity I would wear a tougher shoe to protect my feet. There are various example of how tweaking nature has messed things up. At the same time, there are example where tweaking it has been beneficial. So we must be careful in how we change nature, though in my opinion change it needs. In my earlier statement about the badness of predators and how to solve it, I attempted to mention, in different words, and maybe not clearly enough, the importance of caution.

Benefits of vegan diet is widely reported and can be found on the internet from various reputable sources. Here are some links, though they are old ones that I gathered a while back and haven’t updated them. In addition, I’m always reading new articles about studies that have come out that support the vegan lifestyle, and not from my vegan contacts, but from articles on Google News from regular news sites. Here you go, the old links:

UN Urges Global Move to Meat and Dairy Free Diet
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet
Federal Panel: Vegan Diet Best for Planet (Contains Audio)
http://thehill.com/regulation/237767-vegan-diet-best-for-planet-federal-report-says
From US Department of Agriculture and US Department of Health and Human Services Dietary Guidelines for Americans 2010
http://www.health.gov/dietaryguidelines/dga2010/DietaryGuidelines2010.pdf
Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: Vegetarian Diets
http://www.andjrnl.org/article/S2212-2672(16)31192-3/pdf

When the United Nations, Federal Government, and various other respected sources, claim the benefits of the vegan diet, and these sort of reports continue to come out over and over again from reputable sources, I’m inclined to think there is a significant amount of truth to those statements. Also, as I mentioned in another post, these days it’s incredibly easier to be vegan, pretty much everything has a vegan version and the ones I tried are generally very good and realistic, cheese that melts, ice cream like the real thing, chocolate, milks, butter, mayo, burgers, chicken nuggets, sausages, hot dogs, honey, etc., available in Whole Foods and many other places. The downside is that one must take certain supplements, like B12.

For me the choice was because of animal rights, but considering that there are also health and environmental reasons, it seems a no-brainer, win-win lifestyle, while the opposite seems senseless, and even to various degrees immoral, depending on the individual, their situation, and how informed they are about the facts. That’s not an easy thing for someone to say in this day and age, similar perhaps to if one was going to say in the deep south during the time of slavery that slavery is immoral or evil, I imagine many would be upset.

It seems that the evidence to support a vegan lifestyle is strong, but I think there are major cultural barriers that need to be overcome, not major logical barriers. It’s not a coincidence that, unless I’m mistaken, it seems people generally tend to adopt the religion and culture of their parents, nation, and times. Culture is a powerful force, deeply rooted in people from a young age, behind things like parental and peer pressure, behind being ridiculed by large numbers of people, which I have experienced many times here, and behind financial and employment pressures. So it’s not going to be easy for people, especially hunters and such, to all of the sudden be able to accept these out of the norm and controversial ideas.

Like I said, I think predatoriness is evil by definition, and by feel, and I want to reduce or eliminate it as much as practically possible. Can animals act evil? I think yes, but I don’t think about evil perhaps the same way as others might, or as something that should be punished. Rather, I see it as a disease that anyone could get if they were in the evil doers exact situation, what psychology calls nature and nurture. If you were born with a bad person’s exact nature and nurture, its hard for me to imagine how you wouldn’t do the exact same things. So I try to treat evil as a disease, because it seems like a roll of the dice who is and isn’t evil. I think evil is a zombie like disease that should be treated as best as possible, and if cured there should be no mandatory sentence for something that is basically a disease. Anyways, how to solve the human and animal predatory disease is complicated and out of my area of expertise. If it was up to me I would put it to the smartest minds in the world to try to solve or improve.

I disagree that animals don’t have rights, or that they are so dumb, senseless, illogical, or irresponsible that they don’t deserve any better than what we are giving them. I’m paraphrasing here so excuse me if I mischaracterized your and others’ exact statements. Somewhat similar arguments were made against slaves, and in more recent history against Jews. Humanity is still a highly tribal, racial, nationalistic culture that preys on outsider humans, so surely they are going to treat beings like animals, that are perceived as more outsiders, in a very self centered and predatory way. I think this argument against animals is more a result of human tribalism and old cultural norms rather than truth. The very poor arguments I sometimes hear against animal rights makes me thing there is something else being it. It might even be a general predatory culture or mentality behind it. People it seems generally wouldn’t be so illogical about for example, what in their Tacoma needs to be fixed, or some other more ordinary matter. Reminds me of addiction or habit, where even in the face of strong logic, a person can continue a bad action, thought not sure if this issue is actually related to addiction or habit in any way.

The fact seems to be that animals can experience suffering, happiness, friendship, etc. If suffering is wrong, and something is capable of suffering, then it is wrong to cause it to suffer unless the suffering is inflicted on it as a result of self defense.

It isn't intelligence necessarily that should determine how something should be treated. If that was the case then an advanced AI would have the right to harm us because it’s smarter, even though it might not feel much and be basically a machine. Or a special ed kid might be allowed to be mistreated by smarter kids. Also, we may not really understand how smart animals are. Our understanding of them and their intelligence, if I understand, seems to have improved, and shown them to be more complex and human like than what we previously had assumed.

I think a being’s capacity to feel suffering, as well as whether a being is actually causing harm to other beings, should be considered in how something should be treated and what rights it has. If a human is going around being evil, while a nice non-predatory animal is being good and nice, that human literally causes less rightness, less goodness, and more wrongness and badness. Who has more rights in this case? In our own human tribe or nation, if someone is acting badly, what society calls criminals, humanity takes away that person’s so called “rights” or freedoms. By the same token, why should predatory humans and animals be allowed to have freedoms to be bad while a good non-predatory animal that is not causing problems is oppressed and made to suffer? Predator and prey balance? Like I said, that is out of my expertise on how to solve or improve without messing with nature in a bad way. I would put that issue to be researched and see how it can be improved. I’m not saying to give cows a drivers license. Obviously they don’t know how to do that. I’m against the tribal based exploitation of good beings that more or less are ok, especially when our exploitation of them is so senseless and bad for our health and our environment, and in my opinion also bad for our mental health.

I think you may be mischaracterizing or misunderstanding what I said. I believe I simply said predatoriness is wrong and should be eliminated or reduced as best as possible. I’m paraphrasing but that’s basically what I was trying to say.

I think there are attempts by the other side to paint vegans in a negative light, but generally it seems those attempts are not well intended. Sure, vegans won’t be perfect, I think many of them tend to be younger, so people here that have grown older know a bit about how that goes. But young people also tend to be more open to new ideas. Hippies and alternative type of people might be more open to new ideas as well. Wouldn’t surprise me that these same type of folks were major supporters of civil rights in the 50’s and 60’s. How do people view civil rights now? What many so called hippies and young people once fought for is a widely accepted norm now. It seems, generally, that older people tend to not be so open to new ideas, and when something new comes around they might have a higher likelihood to miss out, generally speaking, and I don’t have statistics on this, just my impression. At the same time, young people could make various mistakes as well. People tend to have different views on different issues. Maybe vegans and similar folks tend to be wrong about some things, but every issue should be looked at separately. For example, during the times of slavery, which we know now as an evil practice, there were also slave owners who might be the so called southern gentlemen, or relatively intelligent people that were founding fathers of the country. So it would make sense that people can sometimes be good on some issues and bad on others, so best not to generalize too much.

Many vegans might not own firearms, but I’m a gun owner and have posted a picture of my firearms in the gun thread. Maybe it’s not right to own guns or assault guns, I haven’t dived deep into the arguments about it, but me personally I own some.

I’m very familiar with the survivalist, prepper culture. Have been following it on Youtube and message boards . Not only would average vegans not survive easily, but many city dwellers would not. I agree, the outdoors type of people, hunters, gun owners, preppers, would surely be at an advantage in many survival situation. I think prepping is a good thing, but I obviously disagree with the non-vegan lifestyle.

The difference between hunting lifestyle and vegan/animal rights lifestyle is that the animal rights lifestyle is claiming that the other’s actions are highly immoral. The animal rights movement probably has some similarity with the abolitionist movement. It makes sense that they might want to tell people about it, try to convince them, or tell people they’re being bad. After all, we are talking about what one perceives to be highly immoral. I for one believe that the vegan lifestyle should be forced on others, like abolitionism was forced on others, through a change in the laws, for ethical reasons to animals, not for telling you what to eat.
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Here is my response to you after reading some of the stuff you found in your three minute google search for about 15 minutes.

computeruser6 said: ↑

Oh look, a wall of text and some random links that you clearly didn't actually read in any detail. Have you ever taken the time to read an article, research paper, or study that doesn't agree with your conclusion? The article from the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics cost $36 to access, did you actually purchase it and read it or did you stop at the abstract after you found a title that fit your narrative in Google? Did you really just compare people pushing vegan diets to those who worked to end human bondage? That is truly exceptional of you. Have you actually read any of the studies you even now just cited? Here, let me help you out:

Here are some tidbits from the Hill article you posted:

"The 571-page report says the average U.S. diet has a larger environmental impact in terms of increased greenhouse gas emissions, land use, water use and energy use than the healthy dietary pattern it suggests — one that’s rich in vegetables, fruit, whole grains, seafood, legumes and nuts; moderate in low- and non-fat dairy products and alcohol; and lower in red and processed meat, sugar-sweetened foods and beverages, and refined grains."

"She said the committee mapped out three diets for Americans to use as guidelines – a vegetarian-style, a Mediterranean-style and a healthy U.S.-style diet.
'If people took the time to understand, this is not a meat-free diet and this is not vegan approach, they’d realize this is a healthy dietary pattern with three models that offers consumers a lot of choice,' she said."

You're making a very simplistic argument and not actually explaining any details or science. Do you really think that most of the world's population can afford to eat from Whole Foods? You're really not as smart as you think you are.
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JJ Customs · Jul 8, 2019

Best of luck with the new truck OP. Enjoy your vegan lifestyle I guess.

computeruser6 · Jul 8, 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoIbRq8wnAc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_qnd839mQs

TacomaSport86 · Jul 8, 2019

Damn I'm ready for deer season now.

erok81 · Jul 8, 2019

TacomaSport86 said: ↑

Damn I'm ready for deer season now.
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Same. I’m super pumped to catch some tofu at the lake this weekend.

computeruser6 · Jul 8, 2019

Sequoia1321[OP] said: ↑

I'm not a scientist as I believe I mentioned, but for me the abstract or summary was adequate summary information, from a respectable source, about their position on the benefits of the vegan diet. It's really not for me too look into those details that deeply. Not my area of expertise and might not really understand it. But again, all those links I provided I read, but yes, I didn't register an account, pay $36, and read beyond the abstract of that particular link.

My comparison to treatment of slaves and jews in the past to current animal treatment was that similar arguments were made about their dumbness or inferiority, to justify the wrong actions towards them. Also, I was pointing to the group mentality, whether it is called tribalism, nationalism, racism, speciesism, whatever you want to call it, that is a common characteristic behind those events. Predatory behavior, whether done against humans or animals, seems to be about overly selfness or self offense, rather than self-defense. Our sense of self is not just our individual identities, but also our group identities.

Regarding use of government force to implement animal rights, vegan ideas, that's like how we use government force, police for example, to carry out the laws that more or less reflect society's current sense of right and wrong. I think much of what we do to animals currently is very bad and should be made highly illegal. If we continue to progress this should eventually happen, I assume.
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Wow, your arrogance knows no bounds. You can't be bothered to read past an abstract and you claimed to read something that you didn't even pay for? You read the article, you didn't read the article, you just can't make up your mind can you? One does not have to be a scientist to be able to read more than a paragraph. Are you the type who claims that "history" is on your side? You really are an exceptional individual. You really aren't as smart as you think you are but please, do continue to compare slavery to eating meat and explain why the government should force everyone to practice veganism like you do. Also, here, you dropped this:

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