3rd Gen HID vs LED vs Halogen H11 projector headlights

Of likely interest to this group, one of my next threads will be on adding aux driving lights (high beams) behind the grill and connecting them to operate like stock. First parts just arrived at my desk today.[/QUOTE]

Confirming interest in this!

 

Trying these out at the moment. Obviously the coating means they won't compete with the Philips H9. I like the color though. Easy on the eyes.

 

For low beam?

 

Yeah. The yellow actually seems lighter than it did with my H10 fogs. Maybe due to the extra 20 watts. Maybe they don't adjust the coating to compensate for higher wattage

 

I've got some diffraction coated H9s you are welcome to try if you like. Lunex provides a golden hue while Xencn is a lower color temp but also lower output. Diffraction uses a coating to diffract/bend the targeted light spectrum (blue light in this case) out of the main beam. In the Tacoma projector the majority of this blue light then appears to be blocked by the projectors internal light shield, leaving a lower color temp light for the beam. I wouldn't recommend either Brand brand per say, as they are not mainstream brands known for quality. But I have tested both these and they are higher output over stock.

 

Yes interested!

 

I've heard of xencn before, but haven't tried them. Have you tested any Nokya bulls before? I'm not sure how their output compares to the bigger brands, but they seem to be good quality and have a pretty good lifespan.

 

Xencn is a China brand. I bought their diffraction 2500k H9 bulbs for my Tacoma Subaru fog H9 conversion, as they were the lowest color temp diffraction H9s I could find. I think they are a bit too low color temp for headlight use. I haven't tested Nokya, much of their halogen product line focuses on blue coated 'white' bulbs. They do offer some clear 'stage 2' higher wattage bulbs, including a 75w H11 which I've thought about testing. If you are looking for an 'All Season' bulb, the Lunex H9 I think is a better fit, they give more of a pleasant golden color that is easy on the eyes vs coated yellow . Lunex is an India brand that masquerades as a UK startup brand. Again, neither of these are high quality reputable brands. If you'd like to try them out I'll send them your way for the shipping cost.

 

What would we do without crash's knowledge? Props to OP, dude, your work has really helped so many including myself. Thanks on behalf of the community for it all. /ass kissing complete/

 

As a recent LED fanboy convert, I'm obligated to point out the fact that not all LEDs are created equal, and there are some good options out there. I'm not saying the best LED is better than the best Halogen or HID, but I don't think it's fair to group all LEDs together with the two tested here. All due respect to @crashnburn80 for putting in the work, but this isn't the only test that's been conducted with headlights. Some LEDs work better with projectors than others. Bulbfacts.com shows the XD LED as a pretty poor performer in projectors. I cant find the DD brand on there, but they look like the GTR or Philips bulbs, neither of which performed very well in projectors. I understand the concept behind the statements made in this comparison about how the light is emitted differently. While I can agree to an extent, you don't really know what is best in your application until you've tried it. This test, while certainly more extensive than any I've found pertaining specifically to the Taco, is very very limited in overall scope. Again, I'm not bashing or arguing the information provided by the OP, but I AM arguing some of the statements and assumptions people are making based on a sample size of TWO LEDs. Sure, LEDs work on a different principal, but that doesn't mean they don't work.

Also, it seems to me like the main focus here is on low beams, which makes me wonder; why would I care if my low beams can light up a trash can three miles away? Isn't that what high beams are for? Personally, I prefer the more even spread of adequately bright light the LEDs in my Fusion provided over a mega bright spotlight for low beams. I'm not saying a drop in LED is the same as the $2000 unserviceable factory headlight assembly in my Fusion; just that I don't think "best" is based on hot spot lux alone.

Anyway, in case @crashnburn80 (or anyone else for that matter) has a bunch of dollars he needs to rehome, and wants to be the end-all authority on Taco headlights; that site lists the Bosch Gigalight +120 as the best projector low beam/combo bulb, and the Flosser High Wattage for high beam reflectors. I'd also like to see how the Katana LED, Hikari Ultra, and Lumibright XT1 stack up as they're Bulbfacts' top projector performers in their price ranges. Maybe throw in the Supernova V.4, as that seems to be the crowd favorite for the Taco. Possibly pluck a few of the other top performers from the bulbfacts lists, since they use H7 bulbs for everything, and I assume H9/11 bulbs may have different results.

As it stands, for low beams anyway, I'd rather have the significantly longer lasting LED, even if it isn't a spotlight (which I'd debate based on a lot of the other comparisons I've seen). Spending $50-100 one time seems more appealing than spending $20-50 every six months, especially if they perform just as well.

This is a decent read.
https://bulbfacts.com/news-articles/ultimate-headlight-and-foglight-upgrade-guide.html

This is what it says about LEDs:
"LED as we mentioned previously is a very new technology for vehicle headlights but has reached a point where we feel comfortable recommending them. Just be sure to check our LED Test Results Chart to ENSURE you pick up a kit with a good beam pattern. It’s critical to avoid glaring other drivers and causing problems on the road. We are very selective when recommending LEDs, as again, we only want you to run a kit that works well in both reflector and projector headlights. You can see how LED kit’s beam appears in our test reflector and projector housings, and while some work well in a reflector, others may work better in a projector. It’s best again to always check our chart and click on the beam pattern image for a closer view.

The best LEDs are ones with the latest LED Chip technology like CSP (chip scale package, smaller application), such as Lumileds and CREE (at the time of this article). This is critical as these LEDs are very small, and very bright. This is achievable by mimicking the filament of the halogen bulb, essentially making the light glow brightest at the same exact place, down to the mm. Older models are larger, and don’t focus the light properly, making a big impact out on the road. You’ll see some new designs like the Hikari Ultra and Katana kits, that point light even further by scaling the module on one side smaller than the other.

I want to bright up how certain designs take to Reflectors, and others Projectors. You’ll notice a trend on our charts if you look closely. The kits with a large covering or cap near the tip or top, work good in reflector style headlights, but because of the design of projectors, these same bulbs do very poorly as the light is cut-off too soon inside of the projector. The light is not fully utilized, and light is wasted."

Oh, and holy shit. I just looked at the bulbfacts numbers for on the HID kits. The high beam output is INSANE!! I knew they were bright, but the kit from Morimoto is 17k+ lux compared to 5400 lux for the Gigalight halogen, and about 7k lux for the Lumibright. Granted, those aren't apple to apples tests, but that's more than two to three times as bright! That's nuts! If it weren't for the warm up time, I'd be tempted to run HIDs in my high beam buckets.

 

There is some good info in there, along with misleading information. Many drop in LEDs put out a ton more light than the stock halogen bulbs they replace, they are simply much brighter, but but they are also much larger than the halogen filaments they replace. A headlights optics are precision engineered to draw light from the specific size and location of the filament and focus it for down road distance projection. Changing the size of the light source, changes the focus, which changes the ability to project distance down road. Making light source larger reduces focus and projection, making them smaller enhances focus for improved projection. With the LEDs being much larger than halogen filaments (people always overlook width) the focus is reduced, which negatively affects projection performance. So while you may have a lot more light, without proper focus it will not project as far. This is easily concealed if you take measurements at short range like some LED companies, and like Bulbfacts which is using a very short 12' distance. If you look at charts where I've done multiple distance measurements, you will see how short range measurements make the LEDs look much better than they actually perform at distance. And my 'short range' test was 18' which is 50% further than Bulbfacts is using, meaning their lux measurements will even further downplay loss of focus/projection.

Pretty sure the Bosch Gigalight +120 is just a rebranded GE +120, GE/Tungsram is the actual manufacture.

Also keep in mind, that site is trying to sell you a product. They provide links for you to click to buy the product and when you do they get a kickback.

I've actually tested far more LEDs than this thread contains. For the record, there are 3 drop in LEDs covered in detail, and the Morimoto replacement LED assembly. But what I don't have for those other LED tests is the long distance data, and without that data the results are severely misleading, which is why I haven't included them. I'm not interested in building a library of tests of every lighting product, there is a lot of garbage products on the bulbfacts site that you can tell won't work correctly just by looking at it. That is a lot of wasted time and effort put into obviously poorly designed products. I'm interested in finding the best performing lights possible for a given application and with where the technology is today, for assemblies designed for a halogen light source, a performance halogen does far better.

I do agree the Hikaris are one of the best in a projector, as I mentioned a while back. I've tested them in the past and previously mentioned that I reordered them so that I could get the distance data I did not collect previously.

 

I had the XD pro LEDs in my 4Runner. Maybe being side mounted makes them behave a little differently than they would in the Taco. I seemed to have a good hotspot and distance, but a narrow beam pattern. The Morimoto XB fogs kind of made up for that at short distance.

 

The side entry 4Runner lights are an odd duck and known for poor performance. With a replacement LED you get one emitter facing directly forward which likely looks like a decent hot spot at shorter ranges, and one directly back into the bowl, but you also end up with the bar supporting the emitters directly across the bowl blocking part of the beam. I haven’t done any testing in that assembly.

 

I fully understand what you're saying, and I did read everything you wrote. The point I was making is that:
A) you may be correct in theory, but without testing I refuse to accept the claim that LEDs can't offer a beam that is just as focused as a halogen. This is because the optics in an automotive headlight are a far cry from being on the same level as the optics in my Leopold scope, by which I mean that at a certain point, I doubt they are going to get significantly more focused. I don't think you'd realistically see a drastic difference between a high performance halogen filament and a magic singularity that puts out the same lumens.
B) Even if a 1000 lumen singularity did focus the beam a significant amount, having a more focused beam gives more light at the hot spot, but at the cost of less light everywhere else. I have no interest at all in having a spotlight for my low beams. I very much like the flood light affect so I can see what's in the ditch and around corners as long as the hot spot adequately lights up what I need it to. A long throw is neat for bragging rights, but a shit-ton of light is what keeps me from hitting dumbass coyotes that decide to dart into the road.
C) LED arrays aren't actually that much larger. They are getting smaller and smaller. Without looking at the newer options, I don't think it's fair to discount them. The LED swap I just did in my mustang appears to have a more focused beam than the halogens they replaced. Of course that's comparing a cheap LED (hikari) to a cheap halogen. Lets just say they do in fact offer slightly less focus (debatable). If they also offer over 300% total light output, that focus is going to be trivial, but the added ambient light and longer life will be significant.

Perhaps. If only we knew someone with a fancy test rig all set up that could conduct an unbiased experiment...

Understood. They have links to ALL the products though, so I don't know that they'd benefit from promoting an inferior product.

I only count the two I names in my post because the Morimoto is not a drop-in (thus is not fair to the halogens. My Fusion's OEM LEDs absolutely annihilate any halogen I've ever seen), and the multi-color is a joke. I don't expect you to test 50 different bulbs as that would be outrageously expensive in terms of both time and money. I don't expect you to test anything, in fact. I would certainly love to see some of the lights that perform better in projector tests for Bulbfacts done by an objective Tacoma owner, though. As a newly converted LED fanboy, I'm sure I come off as a "LED is better than everything, no questions asked" type, but that's not the case. It's just that the only tests I've seen that compare the best of both worlds has shown the LEDs to be superior. Due to the fact that those tests were [in most cases] done in a different housing with different bulbs at short range by someone that my or may not profit from skewing the numbers is why I'd love to see more testing. LED technology is advancing, and I think they deserve a shot at the title.

 

I say that if you want @crashnburn80 to test it. YOU provide him with all the equipment. Also, seems as if you know your fair share, yet don't want to do the test yourself? Go start your own thread with as much data as this one for specific LED info, and maybe you'll find the answers that you're looking for.

 

A) I think you severely underestimate the level of precision in the OEM assembly optics. The stock wattage GE bulbs that put out almost 2x the lux of stock, actually are lower power than stock, the nearly doubling the output comes from shrinking the light source. If you look at a standard bulb and the lower power GE bulb side-by-side, you might dismiss the filament size differences as negligible to unnoticeable to non-existent. But that is not the way the optics work. The smallest changes which are difficult for the human eye to discern can have a huge impact on focus and projection performance, as demonstrated by the GE bulbs. If changes so small you can barely see them double output, changes so large that double the width of the filament as many LEDs do, the focus and projection performance implications are severe. Here is a short article from Philips explains how this works:
https://www.philips.co.uk/p-m-au/au...e-articles/article/improve-your-lights-easily

B) In a black and white world, yes, no-one wants a spot beam as a headlight. Fortunately no company has created light emitting singularities as viable headlight bulbs. Flood lights give you less projection, which gives you less distance and less time to react. You dismiss low beams as essentially not useful for detecting things at distance in the roadway, but that is what the majority of people drive with the majority of the time. The ability to spot obstacles sooner at advanced distances directly leads to safer driving conditions. And no I'm not talking just running a spot beam, as that is not how the performance halogen products of today work. Short range 'flood' lights from some drop in LEDs lead to real dangers in overdriving your headlights at speed.

C) LEDs are WAY larger, as in 2x+ larger. You'll notice most all LED companies only compare 2 of the 3 dimensions, X & Y, but almost never talk about the width between the emitter faces, or the Z dimension, because it is terrible. In very small projector assemblies this width change leads to a significant loss of focus and projection. In larger assemblies like large reflectors the focus loss isn't quite as bad as the small assemblies because the larger distance reduces the relative angle change in the reflectors to be not as severe, so it is a bit more forgiving comparatively, however instead they emit massive amounts of horrendous glare to on coming drivers. Lighting performance is all about light control, and control is all about precision, and the current drop in LED products throw the precision out the window when they are nowhere close to the size of a halogen filament. If you want to drive with a flood light, that is definitely your prerogative, but the automotive lighting industry best practice is extending low beam distance projection for earlier obstacle detection and safer driving.

The Bosch bulbs are produced in the same country, with the exact same packaging, the exact same style bulb, with the same marketing claims of the GE/Tungsram products. The rebranding is pretty obvious.

You're missing the point. Inferior products may make less bad products look outstanding, or may be content fillers. It should be obvious to those with an understanding which products will perform poorly, but the point is they are being directly paid for their recommendations which is effectively a form of advertising. What if there was a hyper aggressive vendor that would do anything to get the number one recommendation? And when reading the review of this vendors product, it sounded way more like an advertisement than an actual unbiased review? And what if in that review they promoted "special discounts" to promote you to buy from that vendor, because maybe that vendor offers better kickbacks for referenced sales? But strangely they didn't do this for any other vendor. And what if that vendor had such a bad rep that they got banned from this forum. That would be akward...

There are 3 replacement LED bulbs fully tested in this thread. XD LEDs in the original post, Diode Dynamics and Sylvania covered in post #3. I've shared short range test results for the Hikari's earlier, but didn't have the distance data. The 2nd set of Hikaris did arrive to my office today, so they will be included for distance testing soon. But these drop in products will be no match for properly engineered headlights like the SAE Morimotos, or the Toyota OEM LED Headlights (which will be included in this thread soon).

LEDs are definitely the future and can be outstanding performers, in assemblies that were designed for them. If you think I am not an LED fan, you should check out my SAE foglight thread. In assemblies that were designed for halogens, LED don't perform as well, significant glare and loss of projection are real issues. Not saying it cannot get there in the future, but the products need to be way smaller than they are today.

 

I don't dismiss low beams at all. Trust me, I recognize the benefits of having a well lit road in front of me, but I also know that's not the only thing I want to see. There has only been one time I was wishing I had more time to react to an object in front of me due to poor lighting. I was in my '88 F-150 with those Halogens with a blue coating. The white light looked great, but that didn't help the black dog that was standing in the middle of the highway while I was doing 65mph at night. With the exception of that black dog and absolute shit headlights (and some potholes) I've been able to see any obstacles with adequate time to react because even mediocre headlights will light the road adequately, especially with many factory adjustments that have the beam hitting the road long before it runs out of lux. Having more light down the road is great, but having light in the ditches has been far more useful for me. I like to think I have a pretty good sense of what makes for good driving light, too. I've been driving professionally for a while now with countless different lighting options, often times with great haste.

If I can get an improvement in every area of my headlight beam, I'll take it, absolutely. I'd never want to sacrifice peripheral light for the sake of a more focused beam, though.

I don't think it's the precision that I'm having an issue with. I think it's the importance of that shrinking of the light emitter beyond a certain point. I certainly can see how the old LEDs with giant diodes would be a mess, but the newer ones with smaller diodes and overall designs that play well with projectors seem to be much more effective at getting the light where it needs to be.

Doh! I missed the Sylvanias somehow. I'm not surprised they didn't perform that well. I also searched the thread for "Hikari." The results were very... illuminating.

I look forward to seeing how they do at longer range. From what I can tell, though, all the guys running the Hikari and Supernova headlights in their tacos seem to be quite pleased with the light output. Given the improved aesthetics, longer life, and at least an improvement over stock, I'd still call them a winner even if they don't beat out the best halogen in the min/max competition.

You make quite a few comments about not running them in reflectors due to glare. As I said, I put the cheaper versions in my Mustang, which obviously has reflectors, and they look fine. The pattern does looks like it might have a few more strays than the stock halogens with a glare cap, but not something I think is gonna blind anyone. I'll post some pics. Maybe you can tell me I'm an idiot that can't interpret proper headlight patterns. The deal with the fog light, IMO, is probably something specific to certain reflector designs, and not something all reflectors would suffer from. I may be completely wrong on that, though.



The pics LOOK like they have a less defined cutoff, but that's just because I'm so close to the board that the LED hot spot is washed out.

 

I feel like I'm outside the loop on this one...

 

Interested to see how "the eye of Megatron" perform at distance.

 

Old giant diodes that didn't even resemble a filament are certainly far worse than more modern smaller ones today. Here is output shorts of one of those LEDs that used to be super popular on the forum at the time, which everyone talked about as a great upgrade on the right vs a higher output halogen on the left. Pattern, performance and glare of those older LEDs were abysmal.




Diode size isn't as much of an issue now though, it is the space between the opposing faces of the diodes that still needs to be improved. This is what drives the focus. You could certainly prefer to not shrink the light source beyond stock size if you didn't want a more focused beam for extended projection, but the light source should be at least stock size for the correct optical geometry, and the drop in LEDs of today are not, they are still too large. With reduced focus, the way to make the distance performance less bad is throw more lumens at the issue. However, in a reflector this compounds the problem of creating a bunch of glare as well, without addressing the actual problem.

Your mustang lights definitely suffer from high glare. Look at the top of the board in the halogen only pic. It is dark as it should be, as light should not be going into that region. In your side-by-side comparison pic, the top of the board is well lit, as are the walls and everything around the LED side. That is glare. And while you may find it helpful to you to light everything around the car, it is also blinding to oncoming drivers. If the light is going where it is not supposed to, that is also less light going where it is actually supposed to, meaning the light is wasted, which is the lack of focus. And that lack of focus reduces distance projection. The side-by-side comparison also appear the light isn't as well defined, which makes it more shorter range flood. So while the LEDs look impressive up close, with wasted light and lack of focus the beam does not carry as far. I know photographing this stuff is very challenging, I spend a lot of time doing it. The products are getting better though, and quality LED manufactures continue to work on ways to improve focus. There is a low signal to noise ratio though, many aftermarket brands are often way more focused on raw output rather than optical focus, projection and glare.