Lithium Battery to replace AGM

Yeah, in another life I used to do commercial fishing and our season was October-February...well below freezing all season.

 

That's a ship and i'm pretty sure the mechanical room is heated with waste heat 24/7

 

True for nonspecific cold weather lithium batteries. However, if you have the engine running, it will usually mean you are using the battery which will usually warm it enough that it can charge safely. Also, something you can do with lithium is if it's too cold to start, you can run some electronics and it will usually warm the battery enough to allow it to start.

 

On our boats, our batteries were mostly all on the deck.

 

Damn, those are crazy expensive plus it says they require 14.2-14.6V recharge similar to AGM. I’m wondering if this voltage is the same for all Lith batteries.

 

No, most automotive lithium batteries are direct drop-in for the LA batteries. Just when you start adding the extreme cold weather do you have other special considerations.

 

Lithium Power tool batteries are made up of cells that go from about 2.75v discharge to 4.2v charged though that varies some by chemistry. 18v and 20v tool batteries have the same number of cells (5) but use different charge states to define the total voltage. The amphours is determined by how many sets are in parallel x the rating of each set, the ones I use have 2 parallel sets of 5 cells in series. It's best to stay above 3v per cell but even then a 12v battery could be 4 fully depleted cells with a full charge at 16.8v or 3 full cells with a discharged state at 9v. I've used an 18v makita battery to start a truck but the charging ranges aren't compatible even on 12v" tool batteries. They need to have a battery management circuit board to monitor and maintain an even charge state across all of the batteries in each set or you run the risk of imbalance where one cell in a series is at a different voltage than the rest and when the total discharges below 3v x the total number of cells one of them would below the critical minimum and fail. Some chemistries fail catastrophically either venting, catching fire, or exploding. Some cheap manufacturers skip the bms circuit boards which is how the hover board fires were happening. Some make poor chargers which inaccurately charge the batteries to too high a voltage which can also lead to failure. I use them but it's not a technology I'd reccomend for diy purposes unless you can get a fully integrated and well engineered set of products rather than cut/pasting mismatched systems.

 

From what I’ve read all these batteries have a software management system called BSM which monitors the charge level and voltage

I probably wouldn’t be able to spring for a 100 amp version as they are $1,000k plus but when I day dream that having 80-90 amp hr of useable will be much more than anything I have planned in the future. If I go with a 27f now with 46 hr usable, then I might need solar someday. Think about the cost difference now to avoid solar or dual battery and the convenience factor... all for less weight and complexity and a superior product which is rated to last up to 10x longer...

Tough though because I could likely go with a 27f and be done period. Future proofing is insanely tough.

 

Interstate is no longer manufactured by Johnson Controls. They’re made by Clarios.

 

I used to be really into RC and I wouldn't want a lithium battery in my truck. I'd be insanely worried about an over voltage charge blowing one of these up and failing in a remote area. Overcharging a lithium will ruin the battery at best and cause a fire at worst. If a Lithium battery drops under voltage it becomes unusable, so using a fridge off one would be a horrible idea without a very good system to cut the voltage off above the crticial charge level.

From what I've read the only reason to use LiPo or LiFe batteries on road vehicles is where the weight matters, like in a street bike where pounds matter. On a truck the advantages just aren't there.

TL;DR Lithium batteries add complexity and finicky charging in exchange for weight savings. That's it.

 

Dakota lithium's site and specs say -20F to +120F for their LiFePo4. That's 52 degrees below freezing. Cold must not be to much of an issue.

 

Duck hunters use their boats when it's cold as shit. And depend on good batteries to fire up the motor, run lights, gps etc etc.

 

I still wouldn't trust one. A lot of people seem to forget that some parts of the country stay in the subzero temps for days

 

The colder and worse the weather the better for ducks. So they probably see some pretty cold weather

 

I put one of the antigravity batteries in my bike. Works like a battery. I wouldn't hesitate putting it in my truck. I already stick it on a charger once a week anyways

 

Lithium certainly isn’t for all conditions. But in those same freezing location you refer to, LA, AGM, <insert any battery tech> also are terrible.

I’m also really confused why people are comparing automotive lithium batteries to rc car and power tool batteries. Most don’t have any kind of bms built-in and rely on the charger and/or manual checking to not have a catastrophic failure. Automotive, solar, etc all have that built-in to the batteries. I would have zero reserves running lithium in the most remote locations. I do understand it’s not for everyone though, just like fuel injection is too sophisticated for some people because “what if”.

Lastly, don’t get entirely hung up on Ah ratings. A 40Ah lithium is equal to about a 90 Ah LA battery. What’s most important with these is making sure you have the cold cranking amps.

 

Funny thing is I've never had a problem with my Northstar AGM battery in - 20f here. I haven't heard of any issues apart from the odd case of one bad from factory. My area has some of the worst conditions for batteries too. In Southern Alberta the temperatures often fluctuate from - 20f to 60f within the same week.

In RC I saw quality batteries swell and occasionally light on fire just from one mischarged cell or heavy voltage drop. Heck if the battery wasn't kept at the proper storage voltage it could swell. It wasnt just the LiPo batteries either, all kinds including the newer LiFe technology needed tons of maintenance including special digital computer chargers to make sure the batteries were safe. Seriously I see zero reason you'd want one if you want a reliable battery in a vehicle over time. In a race application where you maintain it in a garage on a charger? Sure. Otherwise no. Without the digital charger checking the cell voltages it's an accident or failure waiting to happen.

 

Don't lithium batteries have a propensity to go really wrong when they they do?

It's other people's money and choice, but I wouldn't spend $1k on a consumable like battery. I'm the same dude who bought a matching spare tire and wheel, so I know a thing or two about wasting money.

 

I know that the RC LiPo's are hardly comparable to full automotive batteries, but the tech is similar enough.

I used to be really into MilSim Airsoft, which used RC batteries to power the guns. After suffering multiple cold-weather failures with traditional NiCad and NiMH batteries, I switched over to LiPo. I only ever experienced one failure of a LiPo, and that was a result of poor design where a screw holding a removable stock entered into the battery compartment and breached the battery (I almost set Ft. Hood on fire at Op Bulldog with that one). Never experienced any undue depletion due to cold weather. In fact, the batteries lasted much longer than the NiCad/NiMH counterparts. Further, the LiPo could discharge more of it's power without damage or "memory loss". Granted, my information is from 10 years ago...

The 'thing' about any lithium battery is you need to ensure that all cell packs are charged evenly. A $5 smart charger add-on solved the field-charging issue and I was able to adapt a fast charger with a simple plug-in. The computer chip monitored and adjusted charging accordingly. I'm certain there is something of this sort for automotive applications or even drop-in batteries.

Every cellphone and laptop made in the last few years uses a form of lithium, usually Li-Ion. This isn't new tech. Turns out, there actually is a lot of information out there regarding Li batteries. Funny how Google works like that.

A quick link from 2015: https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2015/03/30/batteries-lithium-ion-vs-agm/

Now I'm interested in looking into a future Li replacement for when this stock battery dies off.

 

Like I said, for small portable use LiPo or LiFe is great tech. It's basically the highest density battery technology available. Wherever weight or portability is a concern it's used.

Yes Lithium batteries don't have memory or wear issues like NiCd, but neither do lead acid batteries. Citing NiCd as a comparison is horrible since it's literally the worst technology for rechargeable batteries. It has all of the issues lol. I'm very familiar with the type of battery in your gun. My paintball guns when I was a teen over a decade ago had Lithium batteries in them as did the early Airsoft tech I bought into. Those batteries were small and cheap, not to mention the controller didn't have to apply much amperage to get them charged up, since all they run is the electronics and a few small motors. They're not a great comparable unless we are talking low amperage draw applications like cell phones, laptops, etc. Actually I work on PCs regularly. I'm even involved with the PC build thread on here. Laptops are a great example of the reasons LiPo's are great as well as their limitations. Ever leave a laptop for a month without a charge in sleep mode? The battery is usually toast. Why? Because once LiPo drops near a specific warning level the PC will shutdown to prevent undervolting the battery. However, the battery will slowly deplete anyways from the cell monitoring you speak of and drop below safe anyways. Once it does if you try to charge it the battery produces hydrogen, swells, and becomes a ticking time bomb. Luckily the PC won't let you do this it'll just tell you the battery is toast. Also if it did worst case scenario the battery would swell but not ignite because of it's safety casing. In an automotive application I wouldn't trust a bolt on computer nor would I trust the casing under the pressure of the battery strap to provide enough safety margin to avoid the vehicle literally burning to the ground. Another cool fact about lithium, it burns hot enough to ignite most metals in your vehicle, so you can't extinguish it with most home firefighting equipment. Fun stuff.

The reason RC is so comparable to auto use is because it's a high amp draw high voltage use. It's a direct comparable. So are hybrid car batteries, which is why Tesla even states that under cold weather their models loose 30-40% of their range. Also that's why Tesla battery cells are controlled by redundant computers in a fire proof casing.

The problem with ALL chemical batteries under cold conditions is that the available amperage produced drops off as temperatures fall. This happens with all chemical batteries because they are all dependent on chemical reactions, which slow down under colder conditions. The only reason your Airsoft gun battery seemed immune to it is because the amperage draw from the gun was so small it didn't matter. On a car battery you will have the same issues as with any other technology unless you oversize the battery to provide enough CCA. Actually that's what OP needs to do, buy a high quality AGM from Northstar that can provide enough amperage under cold conditions to appear to be unaffected by the conditions. Switching to lithium has no advantage except for decreasing the weight and size of the battery necessary for a certain CCA rating due to it's high density. It's not a miracle lol.

If you want a tech that will actually do what OP needs, look into solid state capacitors. Basically capacitors where the charge storage medium is the surface of a solid without the need for a liquid electrolyte. No electrolyte means no chemical reaction which means unaffected by cold. There are YouTube videos where simply stringing a few of these together provides a starter charge that can be over 1000 cold cranking amps and will hold a charge for months. Stack it on top of a small battery and you have a literally limitless high amperage starter charge. Just make sure you know what you're doing. Capacitors are not forgiving for novices. Also solid state capacitors cost bank, which is why we haven't seen them used much yet. I expect we will see such technology built into ICE vehicles within the decade as a cold weather feature as the costs drop.