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3rd Gen HID vs LED vs Halogen H11 projector headlights

Discussion in '3rd Gen. Tacomas (2016-2023)' started by crashnburn80, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. Jan 10, 2020 at 10:01 AM
    #2341
    pdxtaco02

    pdxtaco02 Well-Known Member

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    Its all good, you've got valid points. Not too many "lighting engineers" out there anyway haha

    My biggest issue with the LED bulbs are that they tend to lack direct efficient heat sinks.

    We all know that an LED's produce less overall heat than Halogens or HIDs, but the heat LEDs do produce is focused directly around the light emitting diode itself. This is the #1 enemy of LEDs. You can actually watch LEDs get dimmer as they heat up and lose efficiency and also over time.

    We also know a LED assemblies ability to pull heat away from the diodes determines the life, performance and efficiency of the LEDs. Typically LEDs have a longer life than Halogens, not if they cant dissipate heat efficiently.

    Whats your opinion on the fact that no aftermarket H9 LED bulbs have heat sinks directly on diodes or PCB?
     
  2. Jan 10, 2020 at 10:05 AM
    #2342
    pdxtaco02

    pdxtaco02 Well-Known Member

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    For example most good LED bars and pods have the following construction: Light emitting diodes on copper PCB with big ass heat sink directly on the back of the PCB.

    This means that the heat from the Diodes is soaking into the copper PCB (great heat conductor) then out the heat sink.

    LED bulbs have none of this...

    I know you've studied thermodynamics
     
  3. Jan 10, 2020 at 10:39 AM
    #2343
    BadDogMax

    BadDogMax Well-Known Member

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    You're going to force me into engineering mode, aren't you?

    Here you go:

    LED.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

    Rockoma5 likes this.
  4. Jan 10, 2020 at 11:26 AM
    #2344
    pdxtaco02

    pdxtaco02 Well-Known Member

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    Engineering mode always!!! haha I love it

    IMO:
    Those 3 LEDs in that picture are way too close together concentrating all that heat in one spot
    The heat sink is way too far away
    Plastic is not thermally conductive

    If you're going full engineer then I will too!

    Below is a simplfied version of an LED assembly I designed as a part of a larger project. We did quite a bit of testing on this because power, efficiency, lifespan and beam pattern were critical for this project. Nothing on the market met our requirements so we had to design and manufacture from the ground up.


    I had to remove quite a bit of proprietary design elements to be able to get this released, but the general design concept is consistent.

    Structure Example(1).jpg

    Let me know what you think. Lighting is fascinating
     
    Boghog1 likes this.
  5. Jan 10, 2020 at 11:48 AM
    #2345
    Sasquatchian

    Sasquatchian Well-Known Member

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    Interesting your comment on the LED modules being too close for proper heat dissipation. And therein lies another issue when trying to use LED's where they don't belong. They pretty much have to be as small and as close together as possible to try and mimic the spec for the H11 halogen filament size and placement. And since that, so far, has proven pretty much impossible to do with LED's that have enough output, it always ends up being a compromised design that only sorta works. And by sorta I mean that it throws out light.
     
  6. Jan 10, 2020 at 12:02 PM
    #2346
    pdxtaco02

    pdxtaco02 Well-Known Member

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    Yes my point exactly.

    Its hard to retrofit a good LED design into a H9 or H11 bulb format.
     
    crashnburn80[OP] likes this.
  7. Jan 10, 2020 at 12:09 PM
    #2347
    pdxtaco02

    pdxtaco02 Well-Known Member

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    That's just my opinion though.

    There's a lot of guys who are running LED bulbs and seem to be happy with them.
     
    DWD484 likes this.
  8. Jan 10, 2020 at 12:18 PM
    #2348
    DWD484

    DWD484 Could Be Joking

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    Yeah, there are lots of people who do lots of things for lots of reasons, even tho an LED will never be better than a halogen in this configuration. But like you said, as long as they're happy.
     
    pdxtaco02[QUOTED] likes this.
  9. Jan 10, 2020 at 12:21 PM
    #2349
    BadDogMax

    BadDogMax Well-Known Member

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    Very nice!


    At the risk of boring those who are here for the Tacoma content, here are some enginerd thoughts:

    The success of any high performance, value engineered design is always in the details. Overkill is an easier way to solve a problem, but won't sell on Amazon. How close to the limits can the engineer get and still be cost effective?

    Pretending to be that engineer, armed with little knowledge but lots of Google:

    <start pure speculation>

    - Hikari Ultra is using Lumileds, which is a reputable OEM mfg of lighting. Specs for the LUXEON F headlight LED I found online show Tcase is 130C, which I think means that the LED top surface can be up to 130C without failure. Even if the heat sink design is inefficient, as long as it is efficient enough to keep the top of the LED below 130C it's good enough.

    - The LUXEON F in the online spec has a dedicated thermal pad. So if the pad is bonded to the heat sink, it eliminates the thermally lossy PCB of an ordinary SMD LED.

    - The thermally conductive body of the Hikari appears to be anodized aluminum, not plastic. Aluminum is a good, inexpensive thermal conductor.

    - Active cooling using a fan makes the heat sink a lot more efficient than passive cooling.

    How close did the real engineers get to the limits? The bulbs have 11% 1 star reviews on Amazon. About half of those are from people dissatisfied with the light output (on lots of different vehicles - we know they work OK in Tacoma projectors thanks to Crashburn80). The other half of the reviews are from people who had the lights fail after a few months.

    Of those failures, you have to wonder about the percentage that are thermal failure vs other failures:

    - Some have failed because the installer left the driver box flapping in the breeze, hanging only by the cable, and the wires broke
    - Some have failed because the heat sink is trapped inside of a small enclosure created behind a rubber splash guard and it ends up simply recirculating the same hot air and overheating
    - Some have failed because there is no splash guard (like Tacoma) and dirt can get into the fan and stop it
    - Some have failed from poor installation of the LED onto the heat sink (poor factory QC)
    - Some have failed from poor thermal design. Perhaps the cooling system is not efficient enough when ambient temp is extra hot, or some LED's fail on on the low side of the max temp specification.

    Let's assume that 33% of the 1 star reviews are failures from poor thermal design. Not OEM quality for sure, but is a 97% success rate acceptable for an under $100 Amazon product? Just barely, but perhaps. The engineers of this product cut the design of these REALLY close to the acceptable limits!

    <end pure speculation>
     
  10. Jan 10, 2020 at 12:27 PM
    #2350
    TacoFergie

    TacoFergie Well-Known Member

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    The Fusion has the OEM headlights, Hella based projector. The H9 did improve it, but not enough for me. Had good throw but almost no width. That was what got me into retrofitting and automotive lighting in general. The EVOX-R projector is a great bolt in improvement but still lacks width compared to other projectors available.

    I hope that someone is able to crack the code for the charging system. That would be really good for the 3rd gen guys!
     
  11. Jan 10, 2020 at 3:27 PM
    #2351
    pdxtaco02

    pdxtaco02 Well-Known Member

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    Can't argue with any of that! Your speculation and logic is solid.

    I just think with all that considered it's not the best choice compared to the $20 tried and true halogens

    That being said, we're talking about headlight bulbs here...If you buy something and you're happy with it, then its all good.
     
    Tullie D and CaliTaco718 like this.
  12. Jan 10, 2020 at 7:27 PM
    #2352
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    While not ideal for an LED, these are design constraints imposed by trying to retrofit an LED to mimic a halogen, as @Sasquatchian stated. If you spaced the LEDs further apart, they would not replicate a halogen and performance would be poor/awful, meaning they must be very close together. The heat sink really needs to be outside the optical assembly to not obstruct the optics and provide best cooling, meaning it is far away from the emitters. Fans do try to compensate the cooling efficiency, but have their own issues with noise and reliability in an off road pickup exposed to the elements. Starting from scratch and designing an LED headlight (or any light) around the LED is a vastly superior approach than trying to design an LED around a halogen optical lamp design and environment.
     
  13. Jan 11, 2020 at 4:37 AM
    #2353
    CB3TACO

    CB3TACO Well-Known Member

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    Had my Hikaris for a while now in the fog and headlights and I love them. I can visually tell light concentration seems to be less but the color makes it seem better imo.
     
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  14. Jan 11, 2020 at 7:48 AM
    #2354
    Joe671

    Joe671 YouTube Mechanic

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    Like the 737 Max. Ohhhhhh i'm kidding i'm kidding.

    If they knock off another $20 though, i'm in.
     
    BadDogMax[QUOTED] likes this.
  15. Jan 11, 2020 at 7:49 AM
    #2355
    xxTacocaTxx

    xxTacocaTxx Well Unknown Member

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    Please don't drive towards me, my old eyes can't take that glare.
     
  16. Jan 11, 2020 at 10:58 AM
    #2356
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Replacement LEDs in the OEM halogen fog reflectors will cause some pretty awful glare to oncoming drivers. I'd instead recommend an actual SAE compliant and legal fog from this thread:
    https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/the-led-sae-j583-fog-pod-fog-light-review.554813/
     
  17. Jan 11, 2020 at 1:12 PM
    #2357
    CB3TACO

    CB3TACO Well-Known Member

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    El Duderino likes this.
  18. Jan 11, 2020 at 11:14 PM
    #2358
    150k

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    https://www.fakespot.com/product/hi...-lumileds-12000lm-6k-cool-white-2-yr-warranty

    • Our engine has detected that Amazon has altered, modified or removed reviews from this listing. We approximate total reviews altered up to 2011.
    • Our engine has analyzed and discovered that 68.3% of the reviews are reliable.

    Amazon eventually gets around to deleting "fake"/paid-for/shill reviews, hence the "2011" removed reviews.
     
    BadDogMax[QUOTED] likes this.
  19. Jan 11, 2020 at 11:28 PM
    #2359
    Panchovilla6192002

    Panchovilla6192002 Well-Known Member

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    Finally installed the Philips H9. I’m satisfied with the extra light without spending too much money. Thanks
     
  20. Jan 12, 2020 at 3:05 AM
    #2360
    Rainoffire

    Rainoffire Well-Known Member

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    I do not know if this has been mentioned or has happened to anyone before, so I just want to share my experience.

    I have been running Morimoto HIDs for the year or so, and have experienced the common HID shake that a lot of others have experienced on both driver and passenger side.

    I got used to it, so it never bothered me too much.

    However one day last month, I had this super crazy wobble on the driver side headlight.
    It was fine when driving on flat road, but would shake like crazy when I brake or hit a bump.
    It was a shake/wobble that threw the hotspot everywhere, and shake at stop.

    I turned off my headlights at a stop, then on green turned them backed on.
    The crazy shake/wobble was gone, but the next weird thing is that my driver side light does not shake at all anymore.
    Speed bumps, uneven road, dirt road, etc. it does not shake, only the passenger side.

    It has been about a month already, and it is just perfect. Other than the passenger side...

    I do not want to take out HID to check what has occured, as I do not want to mess up what may be an accidental perfect state.

    Can anyone else chime in on this? What may have cause the crazy shake, why turning on&off fixed it, and why their is no shake at all anymore.
     

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