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A-TRAC: WHY is it difficult for some people to accept it?

Discussion in '2nd Gen. Tacomas (2005-2015)' started by David K, Oct 13, 2010.

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  1. Oct 13, 2010 at 7:19 PM
    #81
    Yoytoda

    Yoytoda The Little Truck That Could

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    So what are you trying to accomplish with the thread? from the title it seems as though you want to know why people ignore/ reject the claims that ATrac is as good as F/R lockers... you then tell us repeatedly to "stay on topic" when people talk about how they think lockers are superior and that this is an understanding??? thread... Last i checked there are several other threads, with "explanations".......sorry if any of my posts did not stay on your topic...


    Unsubbed
     
  2. Oct 13, 2010 at 7:28 PM
    #82
    jandrews

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  3. Oct 13, 2010 at 7:43 PM
    #83
    fubar718

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    great info
     
  4. Oct 13, 2010 at 7:45 PM
    #84
    jandrews

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  5. Oct 13, 2010 at 7:52 PM
    #85
    jandrews

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  6. Oct 13, 2010 at 7:56 PM
    #86
    tacovic

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    stock for now
  7. Oct 13, 2010 at 8:07 PM
    #87
    supralight

    supralight Well-Known Member

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    On topic: for 99.9% of ppl, A-TRAC will get the job done. I think Toyota got the bullseye on this one.

    And for the rest, they will chose something else than a Tacoma for their off-road habits.
     
  8. Oct 13, 2010 at 8:53 PM
    #88
    BlueT

    BlueT Well-Known Member

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    One thing that nobody mention is longevity of system and maintenance.
    Suggestion for those making a test run. Simulate failure in hardest part of the trail.
    Locked guy disconnect harness
    Atrac guy disconnect your wheel sensor.
    Elockers can be engaged with screwdriver or battery bypassing main system. ARB's can be engaged with simple air pump or compressor for tires
    Atrac ??? I want to see how anybody can bypass failed sensor.
    Tree branch taking out your wiring is very common.
    :D
     
  9. Oct 13, 2010 at 8:58 PM
    #89
    BlueT

    BlueT Well-Known Member

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    No cheating
    That supposed to be a test of Atrac vs Lockers, not Lockers VS Atrac+winch :D (+AAA)
     
  10. Oct 13, 2010 at 10:49 PM
    #90
    mgrande

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    I've seen ATRAC in action on a 2010 4runner, its awesome. BTW that 4runner video on page on is a sr5, so it doesnt have a locker, just atrac.
     
  11. Oct 13, 2010 at 11:37 PM
    #91
    OZ-T

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    ^^ :amen:


    :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:
     
  12. Oct 14, 2010 at 12:18 AM
    #92
    NAYo2002

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    I think ATRAC is good. I do agree with BlueT, but not sure on the logic in his arguements though. The reason the locker are better IMO is that the driver can apply exact amount of power to each wheel. ATRAC will work in slippery situations, but its jerky movements can be somewhat unpredictable and could be detrimental to your traction.

    With lockers, you know exactly how much power the wheel with traction is going to get.

    I think what BlueT was trying to say in his example is this. If you can only have certain torque on each tire on a hill climb, as long as the terrain is uniform, you won't have any problems. Where you can have problems is when a wheel slips. ATRAC would transfer the power from the slipping wheel to the wheel with traction, thus giving the wheel with traction more torque. This added torque can exceed the amount of traction available for that wheel. You will end up having both wheels on the axle lose traction.

    With lockers, when one wheel slips the other wheel with traction will still have the consistent amount of power (provided the driver is giving gas consistently.) There will be no jerky transfer of power to that wheel and therefore no slippage occurs on the wheel with traction and forward momentum can continue.
     
  13. Oct 14, 2010 at 4:38 AM
    #93
    jandrews

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    Once again, no. A-TRAC limits the amount of spin on each wheel by providing equal resistance to each wheel (provided by traction on a sufrace on one side and ABS on the other).

    Because of the nature of open diffs, this will cause torque to flow to both wheels in essentially even amounts.

    A-TRAC cannot boost the amount of torque a tractive wheel is receiving, because that is limited by how much torque the wheel is being provided by the engine, through the drivetrain. All A-TRAC (and lockers) do is allow full use of that torque rather than an insufficient amount of it.
     
  14. Oct 14, 2010 at 5:22 AM
    #94
    NAYo2002

    NAYo2002 Well-Known Member

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    Actually ATRAC kicks in when it detects wheel spin and uses the breaks to slow down wheel spin. It's neither smooth nor exact process. You can see this in the videos. It uses antilock type motion which gives pulses of power to the non-spinning wheel. No one is aruging ATRAC isnt superior to open diffs or even regular TRAC systems.

    This is my point: since ATRAC works in a jerky manner, you cannot get the same effects as a locked axle where wheels turn together at the same angular velocity no matter any amount of slippage on each individual wheel.

    In a locked axle, when you want the vehicle to go 5mph, all the wheels will turn at this rate. With ATRAC, when the front right wheel slips, the breaks perform a pulsing action on the right wheels and it provides the uneven pules of power to the left wheel. (each wheel on the axle gets the same amount torque: this is why when a wheel is spinning, you get very little power to the wheel that has traction.. this logic also implies that when you break a wheel on an axle, you get equal amount of torque required to overcome the breaking force on the other wheel.)

    On slippery roads, the max torque before you overcome coefficient of friction is probably less than the torque received in the breaked wheel at the instances when the break is applied. I understand this is done in pulsing matter to counteract this problem. However, it's more perferable to have a predictable rather than a jerky motions when on slippery surfaces.

    Bottomline, ATRAC allows some slippage (differences in wheel spin) as opposed to a locker which allows none. However mininmal this maybe, the fact that it works in a pulsating manner is both its strength (you can manuver more easily vs fully locked) and its weakness (uneven torque transfer to tractive wheel.)

    The breaking force is the root of ATRAC's weakness. If it breaks at the same exact amount to allow no slippage at all, then it will be exactly like a locker. This just isn't the case though.

    For the example above, when you are going at a rate of 5mph and all wheel turn at this rate while having no slippage. When ATRAC breaks on the front right wheel, will the front left wheel will still consistantly turn at the rate of 5mph? No, it will spin faster when the break is applied to the right wheel and stop when the right wheel is free spinning.

    This is not "equal resistance to each wheel" at all time.
     
  15. Oct 14, 2010 at 6:04 AM
    #95
    jandrews

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    All correct, but completely unrelated to what you said in your previous post, and unrelated to my reply.

    You're assuming both wheels have the same coefficient of friction and require the same force to break into a spin. This is almost never the case. In fact, in the case of uneven wheelspin, it is never the case, because if the wheels had the same coefficient of friction, one would not have broken into a spin without the other. They are receiving the same torque, remember?

    Impossible to predict. All we know is that the coefficient of friction is less on the spinning wheel.



    Agreed on all of this. But again, not really related to what we discussed in our previous post. ATRAC will not suddenly break a wheel loose on a slippery surface that a locker wouldn't break loose as well.

    I agree wholeheartedly that a locker is more predictable, smoother/
     
  16. Oct 14, 2010 at 6:42 AM
    #96
    Lurkin

    Lurkin Well-Known Member

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    Wow, 8 pages in less than 16 hours. You'd think this was an oil post.... :)
     
  17. Oct 14, 2010 at 7:49 AM
    #97
    jonny

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    this.
    I agree that both traction systems (atrac+locker/locked f+r) have their pros and cons.
    for me, A trac was already installed on my fj and i love it. I wouldnt consider myself a "hardcore wheeler" but i have been in some hairy situations (not used to the short wheel base yet) and have no problems getting through the obstacle regardless of how many wheels were on the ground.
    traction and maneuverability are awesome on my 2010 atrac+locker.

    would i exchange my atrac for a locked front and rear? no. Atrac fits the bill for me just fine.have never been stuck (yet :laugh:)
    would i lock my front end if my vehicle was not equipped with atrac? probably not...this is my DD. but if it were my trail rig or i was really serious about hitting the trails every weekend ..oh yeah

    it just seems , and please, not trying to piss anyone off. But it seems like the people that have nothing good to say about Atrac are all guys w/out Atrac equipped tacomas. 05-08. I have a feeling that if their rigs came equipped from the factory with Atrac, their thoughts and opinions may be different.

    I can not wait to see the results of John and Larry's test. Please keep me posted on the results guys. Going to be two very capable rigs. :thumbsup:

    same here. Had the tacoma to take my quad out. realized that we always load it in the toy hauler anyways..so FJ for me. :p
     
  18. Oct 14, 2010 at 8:07 AM
    #98
    luk8272

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    I don't have Atrac. I also don't have a locker. If when I purchased my truck this would have been an option I would have gladly taken it as it would offer better off road capabilities than my 4x4 mech LSD. Now, if I had a serious trail rig I would want locked front and rear.

    In no case would I get an after market Atrac and install it on a 4x4. If I buy something aftermarket it would be a locker.

    For a stock option it is a great one!
     
  19. Oct 14, 2010 at 8:42 AM
    #99
    David K

    David K [OP] Well-Known Member

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    This has been a fun and fast exchange my friends...

    I asked why is it difficult for some people to accept A-TRAC... I did NOT say A-TRAC was BETTER than f/r lockers for traction! I did say that A-TRAC comes with our Tacomas (O/R TRD 4WD) and a front locker is an expensive addition.

    I have implied and have shown that A-TRAC will get your Tacoma to the same places as a front locker (opinion/ maybe fact)... so why not celebrate Toyota having it?

    I did say that A-TRAC is superior to front (and rear) lockers for trail driving BECAUSE it does not affect steering while giving the traction needed to go anywhere we want... (fact).

    I was on a tough trail run in Baja, with other rigs that had lockers... They constantly had to turn off their lockers to steer the tight turns on that trail... I didn't have to do anything when I was in A-TRAC mode. Isn't that a good thing?

    Thanks again for the replies! As said above, the only people who have dis'ed A-TRAC don't have A-TRAC... I have A-TRAC and a locker... I had lockers on my last 2 trucks, as well... I CAN go everywhere I did with my locker using A-TRAC and I now go everywhere I want and never use the rear locker I have. I have found A-TRAC amazing and superior to the rear locker from actual getting in stuck situations (high cenered back end with both tires off the ground and bogging down in sand) where A-TRAC drove my truck out!

    Am I glad I have the rear locker, you bet... why not... the more traction options the better... BUT, A-TRAC works and I just hope more of you get to have it or try it so you all can accept it as an OPTION to buying/ installing added cost aftermarker lockers... because you don't need to when you can have A-TRAC.
     
  20. Oct 14, 2010 at 8:49 AM
    #100
    BlueT

    BlueT Well-Known Member

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    I think question was if A-Trac is better then F/R lockers?
    Plenty of videos proving that no.. it fails short
    Its good system but not a substitute

    First You get less smooth ride which means less control over the vehicle.
    Less control means not getting "there" worst case its damage

    Second. The ability to repair Atrac system on the trail is slim to none.

    Third: It provides less traction then lockers will. Not much less but when every bit counts that less could mean a lot.

    more video proving why Atrac is not that good, plenty of FJ guys will turn off Atrac before iced up hills here is why

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sTtUEQvD2M

    Edit before David tells me I am not on topic :D
     
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