Help me understand weight limits...

They say fuck it, I don't care if it's safe or not, it really looks cool and makes me happy. Sorry if this is too technical to follow.

 

All that weight on the frame, bearings, suspension, etc is different vs the weight on the frame, bearings, suspension etc of the trailer.



Fact is people build "overland" rigs probably go over the weight limits. The truck will probably handle a good bit more than what is is rated for, but it's not "rated" for it.

 

The frame, axles, suspension and drivetrain have a limit, or capacity to which they are made to work. engineers design extra strength where necessary within the budget that penny pinchers allow. then they are able to calculate the maximum load. from that a safety margin is determined (typically 15-20% less than materials rating) so your 1250lb payload capacity with a 15% safety margin could actually be over 1400lbs. but for liability reasons, as well as local government restrictions on vehicle weight remove that.. its not a good idea to encroach on these safety margins. you can quickly find yourself beyond the capability of your braking system...

 

In my case, the headroom I have above my current weight of 5040 lb, to my GVWR rating of 5611 lb (door sticker says 2545 kg), is only 571 lb. I am not sure if the GVWR differs between Canada and the USA.

If I add a fibreglass cap, payload will go below 400 lb!

 

@EchoDeltaSierra , next time you CAT scale your rig pay attention to the front and rear GAWR as noted on your door jamb sticker. Don’t exceed those.

 

GAWR, front and rear.

 

There is a LOT of inaccurate info in this thread.

That can't possibly be right. GVWR is short for "gross vehicle weight rating". That is the most your truck should weigh when fully loaded. The weight of your truck unloaded is "curb weight. You have a door sticker listing GVWR and another listing payload. Payload is determined by subtracting the trucks actual weight, (curb weight) from GVWR.

Every 2020 Tacoma has the same 5600 lb GVWR, but every truck made is going to have varying curb weights and as a result differing payloads. It depends on the options on that individual truck. In short the heavier your truck, the less available payload you have. Typical curb weight of 2020 Tacoma's as they roll off the assembly line is around 4400 lbs, meaning 1200 lbs payload. But as you modify your truck it gets heavier, and payload goes down. And some trucks will be lighter than 4400 lbs and have more payload.

In previous years the numbers are slightly different. My 2007 has a 5450 GVWR, but my truck is also about 150 lbs lighter than a comparable 2020. Payload is the same 1200 lbs. But an access cab is lighter than a DC. A 4X2 is lighter than a 4X4. So a 4X2 access cab will have more payload than a 4X4 DC, even though the GVWR is exactly the same.

This true of all trucks. I'll use Ford as an example. They make F150's with 3 GVWR's. MOST new 2020's are rated at 7000 lbs. They do offer a heavy duty payload package that adds 500 lbs to the GVWR, and some of the base model trucks with the 3.3 or 2.7L V6 engines only have 6500 lb GVWR. But Ford offers so many different packages that payload can be as little as 1100 lbs, (less than most Tacoma's) up to close to 2500 lbs. (More than some 3/4 ton trucks). Most fall into the 1600-1800 lb range. The ONLY difference is the actual weight of the truck. It has nothing to do with different tires, wheels, or suspensions.

GVWR is determined by several things with braking and handling being the most important. The suspension will likely handle much more than the stated payload. But all vehicles are designed for best handling with the weight distributed evenly on all 4 wheels. Trucks unloaded are heavy in the front. That is why they don't handle like a sports car. With light loads that evens out and they handle better.

But too much weight in the bed, or on a trailer hitch means LESS weight on the front. Think of a fat guy on a see-saw. You probably won't lift the front wheels off the ground, but you can easily reach the point where they are no longer firmly planted to the pavement. Remember, the front tires do 100% of the steering and about 75% of the braking. If they aren't firmly planted on the pavement that isn't a good thing.

 

right on the door sticker, it says, EVERYTHING YOU ADD, to the truck as far as accessories, reduces the trucks overall payload and carrying capacities. people buy the trailer they want, not what they need, or what their auto can handle. happens everyday, thanks to poorly informed consumers, and pushy salespeople. these are "baby trucks", they really shouldnt be pulling anything over 2800-3200 lbs or so. even with weight distributions hitches, and anti-sway helpers. once that trailer starts whippin, the tail will be waggin the dog, and you are just along for the ride. Ski

 

Let’s be honest, there isn’t anything that a major corporation releases that is not reviewed by their corporate legal team, and I am certain that the legal review was done in a way to reduce legal liability. If not, that legal team should be fired because that’s why corporations pay for legal teams.

Instead of preaching “it’s an absolutely hard limit set by enlightened engineers” I’d prefer getting the discussion back to exploring where the actual design limits are... because we ain’t going to get that directly from the company.

* Also, I have mad respect for the Toyota engineering team. What they have done over the decades is a spectacular contribution to the global manufacturing industry.

** rant off **

 

Agree.

It is right. CAT Scale measurements to back it. I do understand curb weight, GVWR, and GCWR.

This is also right and what I’m trying to figure out. Also, regarding brakes, as previously stated... If I have a 6000 lb Tacoma (400 over GVWR), and a 4600 lb Tacoma towing a non-braked trailer with 3000 lbs (which is within the GVWR and GCWR limits), if the brakes will handle stopping 7600 lbs of rolling mass, would they not stop the same 6000 lbs of rolling mass? (Assuming the load is evenly distributed across axels.)

And, I’ll again reiterate, I’m just debating this in the open for the sake of learning, not trying to be a prick about any of it. Thanks all who chose to join it. This is why I dig TW!

 

I think there is also a factor that a lot of it is the way they rate payload and towing in the United States, which has a lot to do with lawyers etc. Take a ford ranger built for the European (other than US) market...the payload is 1252 KG which is 2760 lbs....tell me they changed the trucks that much.....same with the Hilux...the Hilux has a payload of 1225KG which is 2700 lbs.... Does anyone think that Ford and Toyota would not build or have their vehicles rated with those payloads in the US if they could...of course they would...I think it has a lot to do with the US rules and regs than it does about what the vehicle can do.

 

Correct. That is done by creating specifications that if exceeded, would (hopefully) reduce or eliminate corporate responsibility and hence, liability.

Therefore, it wouldn't be prudent to write in the owner's manual the Tacoma could have a GVWR of 7,000 lbs if the engineering team designed it for only 5,600

Since lawyers generally don't have advanced engineering degrees (those that do usually specialize in patent/intellectual law, not writing specs in owner's manuals) their "reviews" are fueled by the research/data/ and analysis presented to them by....the company engineers that have those advanced degrees ;-)

You might have heard the term 'expert witness'. If a product liability case is litigated (broken axle causing death, brake failure, etc) the "expert" the lawyers call is not going to be.....another lawyer. It will be an engineer with an advanced degree who quite frankly would eviscerate the lawyer with his knowledge. To counter that (and hopefully prevail in the case) the lawyer will refer to his documentation. That documentation is created by the corporate engineering team, not the corporate lawyer team, which usually consists of mostly liberal arts undergrads that never got past HS algebra ;-)

Logically then, if the corporate engineering team was confident that the Tacoma COULD have a GVRW of 7,000 lbs and a lawyer with an undergraduate degree in say Philosophy (my nephew) and a law degree (also my nephew) said "NO WAY, make it 5,600 lbs", he would be fired from Toyota that day. Seriously.

Lawyers are simply really, really good researchers, they are not mathematicians, engineers or physicians. Ok, some are. An old friend got his undergraduate engineering degree from Cornell and his MD from Georgetown. He designs artificial electro-mechanical limb which is pretty cool!

 

Common misbelief that has taken on mythical value ;-)

No, the reason isn't because of lawyers.

It is because in most all of those countries, the max legal speed when towing is about 50 mph and speeding is a serious crime. Roads and highways narrower, some with sheep on them ;-)

Those low speeds, itty-bitty countries, insane fines/jail time for speeding, etc, etc, contribute to MUCH less stress on the vehicle so yes, some vehicles have higher tow ratings overseas compared to the US.

You don't have 85 mph speed limits in Ireland that go for hundreds of miles though a desert where it can get 120 degrees ambient ;-)

US spec vehicles have to be able to do those kind of trips..hence the lower ratings.

EDIT: I should mention that many countries have MUCH tougher certification standards than the US, especially when it comes to the joke we have here regarding the SAE towing standard

 

FIFY

 

Toyota put the TOY in trucks ;-)
These are designed to carry a couple of pails of chlorine, a pole with a long net on the end, and long handled brush for the sides of the pool ;-)

 

I understand what you are referring to and it is 100 percent true, and a good point. But....

Read it again...especially this part:

if the corporate engineering team was confident that the Tacoma COULD have a GVRW of 7,000 lbs

The logic flow:

Emissions engineers are on the Tacoma team
The team says the GVWR can be 7,000 lbs

Do you see it? ;-)

 

Ever heard of Australia?

Since the Tacoma and Hilux aren't the same, let's look at the ford ranger.

GVRW for US ranger is 6,050lbs, in kangaroo land it's 3200kg for most variants. Which in imperial units is of course 7,055lbs.

1000lb difference in rating for basically the same vehicle in 2 large, open countries with deserts. Why the difference? Different laws and regulations. Lawyer stuff.

 

So the question I have is - is it better to pack the vehicle with more stuff and leave the trailer a bit lighter, or keep the vehicle mostly empty and pack more stuff into the trailer?

 

I do see it, but read this part again:

get testing and approval for. We don't have the budget for that and the product research team found most buyers don't give a shit about payload anyway

Testing and approval as in dealing with the government and paying a shit ton of $$$$

 

Link?

Or opinion ;-)

Remember, we don't get the diesel version w/350 ish lb ft of torque. That might have something to do with it ;-)