What is considered BAD Fuel Economy for the 2.7 Liter?

Yea they are gutless and I smack my 3rz all the time lol. Still love yotas!

 

I KNEW sooner or later someone would flame me over their sacred cow.

I told you I love the Toyota EXCEPT for what I NOW learn (remember I came to ASK if my mileage/power was normal, not to complain, at least at first). But I suppose you have no complaints even about your kids (If you have them, you may love them) or even your spouse (If you have one, you may love him/her). Sometimes we have to be realistic and admit that NOTHING is perfect (especially if a particular one DOES have a problem, and I am not sure mine does not). If it's a requirement to belong to this forum to believe our trucks are ALL perfect, then we should criticize any member who comes to ask questions about repairs (Perfect things don't break, right?).

If I said my truck was all over the road, I may NOT be criticizing the model vehicle in general, because maybe I have worn tie rod ends, or a bad steering rack, and I describing the symptom to see if it is likely endemic to the breed, or if it's likely a mechanical failure. Telling that owner to just suck-it-up because they are great trucks doesn't help get the problem identified as a possible failure, and get it identified so it can be remedied, which is the reason the person came for assistance.

You CAN ask me not to mention my other vehicles HERE I suppose, but to compare anything is human nature. That's how we make intelligent choices, and I apologize that I sometimes think out loud about decision, like whether I want to keep my Tacoma in light of it's glaring faults that you point out. That I was astounded that in these days of Green EVERYTHING that a major manufacturer would intentionally build inefficient vehicles (pounds of fuel needed to move it down the highway a certain distance), when we seem to know how to increase efficiency (short of unreliable technological devices that are prone to expensive failures with depressing regularity, a fact I know well owning and operating a small shop catering to MB and BMWs, both of which used to build essentially bullet proof vehicles , but which now (since discarding their philosophy of ruggedness and reliability up until the 90's and some early 2000s vehicles in favor of flash and initial performance, bells and whistles at relative bargain prices when bean-counters took over the companies). They essentially now build junk that barely outlasts the first (and maybe the second leasor). I can LIVE with the economy/efficiency shortcomings BECAUSE of the very things BOTH of us mentioned (relative simplicity, reliability, ruggedness, longevity) and when the fail (like having trucks that break in half for folks who live in rust belt states), but to Toyota's credit they stepped up and stood behind their owners and their trucks. That is ADMIRABLE and I applaud them! A friend in Boston had his '95 Ford F-150 break in half due to frame rust in 2000 and you know what Ford offered- yes NOTHING except a shrug of their shoulders. So I am well aware of the POSITIVE attributes of my Tacoma. Unfortunately, one of my hopes for it was towing a small, light RV, but I know know this is not realistic (hence my pondering various ways to gaining power short of simply moving to a V6 version given the effort I took to make my truck otherwise pristine.

Mea Culpa for mischaracterizing his motorhome (I forget which brand, but it was not a Dolphin) as a Tacoma. I think back then it was just called a "Toyota Pickup," or Hilux elsewhere, which has almost nothing in common with a Tacoma (well, maybe 75% except for styling). The Hilux was Japanese, the Tacoma is an American vehicle. Apples and oranges-completely different design and size. The 95 and earlier do have much not in common, but other than the Toyota Hilux vs. Tacoma name, the genesis of our trucks is clearly a descendent of the "Toyota Pickup" But you ARE correct, it is not a Tacoma.

I DROVE his Toyota Pickup based motorhome, and it was not that gutless compared to MY 2.7 Tacoma (sadly), and it was a LARGE unit compared to some based on that chassis . His was a manual transmission (I believe the 3.0 V6 was later and an auto transmission?). Of course, that was PART of the reason I came here to ASK, because of HOW gutless mine is. My 2.7 auto honestly doesn't have much more power than his 22RE manual motorhome, which did NOT seem normal to me.

For instance, if I am holding, say, 45 mph on level road, and add throttle, I note essentially NO acceleration short of manually shifting down, or forcing a downshift automatically. It's like the throttle pedal is connected to the throttle body with a weak rubber band given the lack of throttle response and effect. The engine is smooth (not so much in idle in drive-but that's a known characteristic), has great compression yet having the vehicle speed decay involuntarily without throttle position remedy short of downshifting on the gentlest grade (I think comparison with other vehicles that are not challenged on the same grade is NOT unwarranted, since I don't have another identical Tacoma to compare it to-wish I did). I was merely trying to ascertain whether maybe I DO have a problem

That is not heaping criticism on "THE" Tacoma, or ALL 2.7 Tacomas (unless mine is, indeed, normal and like all others), but rather MY particular Tacoma in its present form (maybe I do have a problem needing attention- something I am trying to learn. I mean, I once owned a 36 hp VW Microbus (it was a 1960 model I owned in the middle 60s), and I also owned a '67 53 hp VW Microbus, and I would say that my Tacoma falls in that category (closer to the '69) with regard to highway power*, and that does NOT seem normal to me.

But criticizing me for trying to use comparisons with other vehicles, or adjectives (slow/doggy) to DESCRIBE my possible problem is, IMO, unfair.

Bob

*Without engaging OD Off, or downshifting.

 

The thing about comparisons....is the item that is being evaluated needs to be compared to a like item.

It would be unreasonable for a comparison between a Tacoma and a Kenworth. Sure in that comparison, you would conclude the Tacoma is under powered. Conversely, you could compare the Tacoma to a lawn tractor to arrive at the conclusion the Tacoma has plenty of power.

Assuming you want to evaluate if your truck is normal, then you need to detail the symptoms. Based on what I read in your description of the issue the problem is lack of power on the highway manifested by the transmission downshifting when you try to maintain the speed limit. Assuming I understand, then I'd suggest to stick your foot in it, let it downshift, let the engine rev into the power band, get to the speed limit. Once at the speed limit, ease off the throttle enough to maintain speed. The transmission will shift into OD, the engine revs will drop a bit, your fuel efficiency will increase. Normal behavior.

Small displacement engines need higher speed (rpm) to operate in the power band. This is not a big bore V-8 from the '60s and '70s. I had a '71 Buick Electra 225 with a 455 V-8 fed by a Rochester Quad. That ol' Buick had all kinds of power, fuel efficiency was crap. Never squeezed more the 17 mpg from it.

Example: My motorcycle is a 500cc 2 cylinder engine. Its rated at 50 Hp near 8,000 rpm. I know from experience of riding this machine that the power band begins near 5,000 rpm. So, when I'm passing and the engine is less than 5000, I will down shift to increase engine speed into the power band. Make the pass, then settle back to my previous speed and upshift. Under 5000 rpm it has a fraction of it power band to use. I'm pretty sure the 4 cylinder in your Tacoma has similar characteristics.

There are many factors which impact the engine power and tranny shifting. Wind, terrain, vehicle load, wheels, aerodynamics (lift), fuel quality,.........

Good Luck. Based on what I've read and gleaned from your description. I don't think the truck has a problem, but the problem may lie behind the steering wheel.

 

Wow, really struck a cord, didn't I...

Look, people come here all the time asking if something is wrong with their truck because it doesn't seem to have as much power as their [pick another car/truck]. They're right. They don't. lol

But in all likelihood nothign is wrong with it.

Without knowing if you have other symptoms, like check engine lights, clogged throttle body, leaks, etc... you're going to get the "you have a 4cyl Toyota truck" response.

And again, comparing different vehicles is apple to oranges. Different chassis, tires, transmission, power, weight, aerodynamics, everything...


If you want to try and tow with a 4cyl, there's a towing bible thread around here somewhere (search, you'll find it). Even the v6's weren't ever designed with towing in mind. I towed a ~2500# popup with my v6 (5000# rated), and that was adequate at best.

 

Actually 2.7 with auto transmission and and auto locking hubs is the worst combination for Tacoma power. Being Ext cab moves it even lower in the rank. ADD steals MPG. I see that in my manual hubs: just by locking them (actually forget to unlock them when leaving a dirt road) I automatically get 1-2 mpg lower than I have with free-wheeling front wheels.

2.7 can deliver some punch but only with manual transmission. That engine can roll and cruse at 2-2.5k rpm in 5th gear no problem with nice fuel efficiency (by "nice" I mean 20 mpg), but when I need to pass someone I downshift to 3-rd (yes, 4th gear is not good enough), got rpm to 3+k and then I can zoom till the red line. If I press a gas pedal at 2k rpm the only thing I get is angry growl and vibration. That engine does not like to be run at 2k with wide open throttle. It needs at least 2.5k rpm to give some nice torque.

Like @Knute wrote if you need to accelerate with auto transmission you need to give the throttle pedal some punch and the engine will downshift. I did not drive 1st gen Tacoma with A/T, but that technique worked on all other vehicles I had with A/T including 1998 Isuzu Rodeo (R.I.P.) or 1992 Mercury Sable (P.O.S. Ford clone). I think the A/T computer is programmed to monitor the throttle pedal movement speed and act accordingly - slowly pressing on the gas pedal will open the throttle but will not downshift. Sudden stepping on it will downshift often short shifting skipping 1 gear (like from OD to the second).

 

Lowest I’ve averaged in my 2.7L/auto 2WD 2nd Gen while actually driving is 14-15 MPG, but that was around town during the summer with the A/C cranked and A LOT of idling; My average is 17-18 MPG around town overall, regardless of outside temperature, time of the year, or A/C use...

Best I’ve observed this year was 22 MPG on the highway, again during the summer with temperatures in the 80s-90s and the A/C cranked.

The worst overall “average” mileage I’ve calculated was over the weekend at Carlisle this past August, when I spent more time idling with the A/C on during my time on the showfield than actually driving, and I got less than 9 MPG overall.

My window sticker said 19 CITY/25 HIGHWAY, so for a decade-old truck with almost 122K miles, I’d say 17/22 isn’t bad...

 

(NOTE: My Main comments are embedded inside the QUOTE section above it says you must "Click to Expand")

I will not be replying to "Well-known member" as I've belonged to a few Forums, and have found it's best not to troll the trolls. No one wants to read that, and after-all. Given 2020 and it's events, we are ALL having a "bad hair day," and I understand.

Thank-you for your reasoned reply, and I WILL delve deeper into my imagined (or real) complaint, and if I find anything material in FRONT of the steering wheel, I'll report back!

Thanks, all, and if it's still acceptable in 2020 to say,
"Merry Christmas" to all who celebrate the Holiday,
Bob

(Yes, I know what I did to my truck is "Blasphemy" to purists, but I'll just call it a TRD "Tribute" Edition
It's more about "resale" when it some day will come around- It always does.

 

I am not reading that manifesto.

I have said my piece, as have others.

 

Absolutely TRUE, but in my years in the business and in conversations with auto transmission rebuilders, they have ALL said that most problems they see are due to rough downshifts when they "kick-down" with throttle application. It evidently puts a real "shock-load" on all of the components inside the case.

I have a Mercedes Sprinter van I bought new, and used among other things to tow a 3500 pound Casita travel trailer, and did a good bit of investigation into it before purchasing it because I heard that the transmissions tend to fail at about 140,000mi. I went to FedEX, who had a slew of the Gen 1 like I have, and spoke to their depot maintenance manager and he launched into a diatribe about their drivers being rough on the transmissions (Sprinters weigh about 500 pounds empty, have a 2.7 liter engine making 158hp, coupled to a not especially heavy duty 5 speed auto transmission adapted from one used in automobiles, so on hills they DO require a downshift).

He said ZF, who makes the transmission, said ALL of the failures were do to rough handling, in fact, but when dealing with non-owner drivers where no one driver was "responsible", they were not having luck re-training the drivers. They highly recommended against allowing the transmission from kicking down automatically under load (high throttle position under stress, like ascending a steep grade).

ZF recommended if anticipating a downshift is needed, slightly decrease throttle setting, and as the driver moves the lever into the next lower ger (on the Sprinter you downshift by moving the lever to the LEFT on motion for each gear lower you want, rather than moving it forward or aft), and as you move the lever left, add a dash of throttle. I can and do do this so you cannot feel the downshift (as a good operator can also do with a manual transmission), which ZF says produces virtually NO shock or wear on the transmission. Trouble for FedEx was their drivers would nod their heads at briefings, then go out and just add throttle until the auto trans kicked-down for ever downshift. Used by expeditors for 90% highway use (not a lot of downshifting) the same transmissions were exceeding 500,000 miles in service with 60,000mi fluid changes (First ting I did w/ my Tacoma was change, not flush, the fluid).

I always did the same with a Ford 1 ton Powerstroke diesel van I owned for some years when depressing the "OD Cutout" button as a quasi downshift (I towed trailers up to 12,000 pounds maybe 100,000 mi with that rig), and I imagine it would work with the "OD Cutoff" button on the side of the Tacoma shift lever as well, though I have not yet tried it (I've only been driving my Tacoma maybe 300mi since putting it on the road). If it's possible,it might be gentler on the transmission, though with Toyota's reputation for stout transmissions, maybe theirs can stand shocks other manufacturer's units can't.

I WORK on vehicles, though I like being paid for it, but HATE fixing my own (no pay for it), especially when I could have prevented the repair, so I endeavor being as gentle as possible with my own equipment.

That's my reasoning for not just adding throttle to induce a kick-down.

Bob

 

on 4.88's with load range E 285's, manual hubs & 5 speed.
If I go easy and don't mat the pedal all the time, I can squeeze out 16 with mixed highway and city (that's with a corrected speedo).
But yea what everyone else is saying, the power really comes at around 3k. At ~70mph or so, it sits at 3k rpm and is perfectly happy there. Enough passing power on flat ground on the highway.

Before when I was on load range C 31's, I would get 20 or so mpg. Best I saw was I think 23 driving cross country. That was with no armor and pretty much stock though.

 

Absolutely, I couldn’t agree more. I love my manual hubs... except when you skin the crap out of your knuckles locking them when it’s 10 degrees....

 

The main reason I wanted manual. I could only wish 5th gen 4Runner was available with MT.

I know A/T sucks when is being abused, but I don't see any other way of getting power I want immediately. I do the same with MT - downshift and step on the gas. It does the same hard kick on the entire powertrain but if you have to go, you have to go. The other option would be driving the entire trip 20mph behind a farm tractor. I am not crazy driver, but I trust that R&D in Toyota matched all driveline components to the power of the unmodified motor.

 

Or you just ended a muddy trip and you come back into the cabin with boots and hands covered with mud.

 

It's all voluntary.

No one asked you to, so do what pleases you.

At this point I need to drive a similar one to see if pressing on the accelerator gently is supposed to make the truck slow a bit unless I press harder, or make it accelerate slightly even with some additional pedal..

Cheers-

 

Ehhhhhh.... maybe your exhaust system is restricted with military absentee ballots?

 

All depends on rpm you are doing. Like in you are on OD doing 50mph pressing an accelerator gently and slow will make the throttle to open but it will make just more noise and vibration, until A/T decides to downshift. Stepping faster will make A/T to downshift sooner therefor you will get better reaction and truck should start to accelerate. Still don't expect 3 seconds from 0 to 60 acceleration. 2.7 is still only 2.7 and A/T will eat these horses for breakfast, lunch and diner.
.

 

Perfect, and the first actionable suggestion I've gotten!

(And a chucle much needed).

I thought maybe a potato was stuck in there, but with more ballots cast than voters registered in some counties, maybe
some ended up in my exhaust!

Bob

 

At say 45mph on perfectly level road in whatever gear it's in turning maybe 2000 rpm (just a guess- I frankly don't remember, but it's several MPH before 52mph when I think the T/C locks up), applying 1/2"-1 1/2" throttle SHOULD, it seems, make at least a LITTLE more horsepower (rather than cause a slight dead spot, or no acceleration at all) it seems to me.

That amount of throttle pedal gets NO reaction. No more noise, no more vibration, just NOTHING (or until the engine has been fully warmed up a slowing of the truck). My throttle, the cable, throttle body bellcrank have been carefully inspected. I've been wrenching for 50+ years, and was a licensed FAA Aircraft Inspector, so I am a pretty observant and careful person.

Unless to accelerate from 45 to 50 in a reasonable amount of time should (and does on everyone else's 2.7 Tacoma) require a downshift (higher RPM to make enough horsepower to allow acceleration) I do think something is maybe wrong. The closes comparison (after all the others) is to the Tacoma Pickup Motorhome with the 22RE engine I drove. The RV would HOLD speed on a level road, but any meaningful acceleration required downshifting and more throttle and higher RPM, then once the higher speed is achieved, shifting back up to maintain the higher speed for economy.

I just don't know what that might be (mechanical?, electrical, such as a sensor, or even electronic, like the ECU), but when the OBD II system is incapable of "seeing a problem" (I have two pretty good scantools each costing over $2k when new) that are capable of reading all the PIDS the vehicle is capable of displaying, and they are silent. In a carbureted vehicle, I'd say the float level was a bit low, or it needed a slightly larger carb main jet, where such "bogging" with throttle is caused by leanness, or too large (capacity, or CFM) carburetor (causing too-low air velocity past the venturi). But alas, no such adjustments are available sort of a reprogram, or "chip," but on OBD II chips are soldered in. While it sounds backwards, sometimes a slightly enriched mixture can IMPROVE MPG since you end up with a smaller butterfly opening. Win/win!

That is why I came here- for ideas, suggestions, or learning that ALL '98 Tacomas act like mine, so I can resolve to accepting it. No other reason, but as so often, it's gotten beyond the facts, which was not my intent.

But perhaps the FIRST step would be trying to source a near-identical vehicle to drive. Maybe if I advertise in Craigslist and offer a $25 "fee" for a 5 minute test drive with the owner riding "shot gun" to see if that one acts the same. Or conversely get another owner with experience in a similar vehicle to drive MY truck.

I was hoping describing my "complaint" here would sort of collect driver opinions, but since the trucks are known to be "doggy," it comes down to the DEGREE of "doggieness" which is best done seat-of-the-pants rather than in writing on a Computer Forum.

I do apologize for my inability to describe my symptoms with fewer words-

Thanks,
Bob

 

Just offering one or 2 more thoughts.

Engine speed below 2000 rpm is below the power band. You need to get the engine above 3000 rpm to find the power band. ONLY way is to put your foot in the throttle. No need to stomp it to the floor. You also can not gently tease it.

To get the engine above 3000 at highway speed means the tranny will downshift.

As a mechanic, this should be normal behavior in a vehicle with OD in an automatic. My '71 Electra behaved this way......nothing new.

Done.

 

I hear you but I NEVER put my foot in anything- EVER.

Not to criticize those who do, but to accelerate fro 42mph to say 46mpg on level ground it should just take the slightest nudge to accomplish it even at 1800rpm. Sure, if you need to use the spurs, then you need to dig them in a bit.

It's habit and technique, of course, and I am not saying you are wrong, but this would be the fist vehicle I will have had incapable of responding to a tiny bit of throttle. This engine is a fairly high cube cylinders (675cc) and it's not an over square design (the stroke in this engine is exactly the same as the bore), so should have usable torque even at 1800-2200 rpm.

Please understand I am NOT arguing with you, just saying.

I assume you have a 2.7 Auto Tacoma? And I invite anyone listening to do this- Hold 45mph with the lowest throttle that will maintain this speed on a level highway for a few seconds. Then add 1/2" to 1" of throttle (no more) and tell me if the engine kind of boggs (sags") a bit and does not accelerate at ALL, or if the vehicle responds a bit and accelerates a bit.

That would tell me a lot without having to hunt a guinea pig to let nme drive their truck, or vice versa. I won't even address the fuel economy issue because at 15-16 mpg I am in teh ball park even if I do drive like a grandma.

Thanks,
Bob

BTW, I Found this on our Form from another member who did a dyno run. Note that nearly FULL TORQUE is available from 1500 RPM where the chart lines start up to redline and the hp curve is remarkably flat and linear (Not sure I have seen a more linear one!). This is a "torque engine" and not a peaky high RPM HIGH HP engine, which makes sense for a truck engine. Sports car drivers are willing to put up with a peaky engine as they keep their engines in the higher RPM range to get their power. If you've driven a Lotus Cosworth or a Honda S2000 you know what I mean compared to say a"tractor engine" like Triumph put in their TR2-TR6 back in the 1950s-1970s. Different animals.

The Chart Trace starts at 1500 rpm in 500 rpm increments and turns down at 4750 rpm which cannot be seen unfortunately in my copy.

It would be interesting to do a top-speed run in each gear, which I will try to do (without going to jail) and for the ducks of it and will I will report back after I post bail. As it is I kind of doubt I will see 75mph in any gear (full throttle) but we'll see.

Here is the text from the Dyno Poster of a stock 2.7 liter

There is an abysmal lack of performance information on the trusty little 2.7, so I did some baseline dyno runs for an accurate comparison to any planned future mods. Here's a 4th gear run that the speed limiter cut off at 110mph. The rpms went high enough to be able to get an accurate torque curve from 1,500 rpm to it's peak at 3,200rpm.