Camber failure to align

An alignment after new tires was GTG today except for the front right camber. Shop said they could not get within specs, but only off by 4/100ths. Mentioned I may want to get ball joints inspected. 2015 DCSB OR 62K miles, stock suspension and tire size. Any thoughts on whether this is worth caring about and if so what might be the culprit?

Edit, outside of lateral limit by .04 deg, but off preferred by about .5 deg.

 

They couldn't inspect the ball joints? That's step one in an alignment. Lol

 

It’s not the best shop in the world, and it’s not the worst either. Am I surprised that they didn’t inspect the ball joints or give me any more detailed suggestions? Not really. I think they’re fine as a place to go to have tires mounted but for suspension work I’d go elsewhere.

 

Something's moving around...
Your final cross-SAI is +/- 4°.

 

Thanks, I didn’t notice that. I understand how the angle is calculated, but I don’t understand steering and suspensions enough to really know how to interpret that.

 

SAI is the angle from your upper to lower balljoints, viewed from the front. You can expect them to be off some because of the final cross-camber; but not 4 degrees off.

 

Right, I understand how the measurement is taken but I don’t understand how it was impacted by the other adjustments and what the delta means for my system.

 

there is a special button in a laser alignment machine that shows how to get it right/to spec especially camber and caster via the LCA eccentrics
on like page 2 or 3 of the settings
that most people don't know about

not sure why the printout looks like that
they're supposed to look like this

there's nothing to inspect if they have over 150k replace them
Tacoma ball joints can click over bumps even if they don't wiggle when squeezed with pliers
Toyota says to check them with a dial indicator
a new control arm is $30
faster to replace it than to remove it and spend over $30 on parts to refurbish it (joints, bushings) and waste valuable labor time installing them

 

Called the shop back and said I wasn’t satisfied with the alignment outcome as is, told them they either needed to try again, or diagnose whatever deficiency they think might exist. Lo and behold they are now telling me there was a problem with the adjustment bolt. Where was that explanation when I picked up??

If I understand correctly, camber on a single front tire is adjusted by two bolts connecting the LCA to the frame. True?

Visually inspected them. There’s almost no corrosion whatsoever. They look like they have plenty of travel available in either direction. Hard to tell if they’ve been recently adjusted.

I called around and got info on the best local shop for an alignment. Taking the truck there on Friday to start from scratch. What I’ve been told by customer service, and what I’ve observed, leads me to have lost confidence in the original shop.

 

Markk you alignment cams, loosen the nut and see if they move when you try to turn the cams. Be easier if most of the weight is off the front end. Check all 4. Then put them back where you marked them. If they are in fact frozen, they are a booger to get loose since they corrode on the mating surface of the bushing and the bolt.

This is the reason I have trust issues. Lol

 

I’m going to let the shop do exactly this when they do the alignment. On the left side too just so I know. My only lift is the stock jack and I don’t have jack stands. Need to acquire those and a floor jack.

I have no problem with finding out it’s true that a cam has seized but, evidence does not yet point in that direction.

I’m also going to mention another poster’s observation about the SAI change and ask them to thoroughly inspect all the components while they have it up. With me there if they’ll let me. Might learn something.

 

Nobody waits until after
they either get it done,
or if they can't get it done, they stop, park it outside, pull in the next car to work on, while they call you to let you know the bad news and what additional work the car needs, such as replacing more components. It's not unheard of to find a bent tie rod, siezed tie rod, and so on.
The fact they failed to do that, as well as your story suggesting the guy simply did a quick toe-and-go (10 minutes) but charged you over an hour for a full alignment that's supposed to include caster and camber correction, suggests that whoever performed the work buys tools at Toys R Us and drives a short bus
I don't want to be negative and would rather err on the side of optimism, but that is how it sounds based on the post information

You would not be able to see the corrosion from outside. The bolt is one tube inside of a larger tube. You only see it when they're taken off the truck, or felt when adjusting.
Sometimes adjusting is hard, but possible. In other words, "Hey, this tie rod loosened with penetrating oil and torch heat, but next year it will be seized"

Last time I saw a seized cam was higher miles.
I took mine out preventative and they had slight rust and were hard to move but not seized. Preventative fix is to remove, clean, and re-assemble with anti-sieze.
Aftermarket ones have grease fittings for that but might not be machined to the same quality/tolerance as expensive OEM.

Inspection doesn't mean much. It's either the customer (you) reports you bashed into something or didn't. If the truck fails to align, that suggests a bent component. If it aligns, it suggests the parts are fine.
Some issues are normal. For example a 2nd gen Tacoma cannot reach as optimal numbers stock (or with different subframe, adj UCA's) when lifted because that causes positive camber.

Guy cannot see with his naked eye if a part is bent or not. These things are usually seen when taking out the old part and holding it next to a new part. Alignments don't involve 3+ hour removal and re-installation of parts to look at them next to a $1,000 new one for shits and giggles.

All due respect, most shops will not have you in the shop. That's asking a lot.
1. liability, legal, and insurance reasons
2. it slows things down and costs the tech money
a tech who knows what he is doing might be able to breeze through something quickly. That is not as fast when somebody who does not know what he knows, is standing there in the way, asking questions
But given that 99% of people never ask to watch, they might make an exception. An extra 10 minutes on something once in ten years is not a big deal

 

Appreciate the post.

Difficult to say what alignment work the original shop actually did. Also, first alignment I’ve done on this truck, so I don’t have a point of reference. But the communication process was terrible and that quickly erodes trust.

Completely understand that a cam bolt can corrode between bolt and bushing without corroding on the visible surface, but I’m willing to bet neither is actually seized. I’ve watched videos posted in this forum on preventive lubrication and I’d like to accomplish it this year whether I have an actual issue now or not.

Point taken on a visual inspection perhaps finding nothing if a component is only slightly bent. Still worth having an experienced tech look for unusual play or anything that catches his eye.

And yes I fully expect the answer on standing under my truck on their rack to be no, and if that’s what they say, I understand.

Mostly I’m hoping they have no issues accomplishing the alignment and everything looks fine. In which case I’ll ask the first shop for some money back and then move on to the next challenge.

 

I tried the cam bolts with grease fittings. They lasted 1 alignment and were destroyed. I went back to OEM after gusseting my LCAs with the Marlin Crawler kit

 

the bolt can corrode to the bushing or to itself because the bolts are 2-piece
it's hollow. One bolt is hollow, the other is solid, and passes through it

-marlin gussets
-total chaos tabs
-jd fab lower pivot arms

all good stuff

part of alignment is after test drive where they should verify it drives well
should all be green within spec, even better if it's precise/right on the money
and even/the same on both sides so no one measurement is more dominant on one side versus the other side possibly resulting in a bad effect like pulling to one side

*if* they screwed up, I'm not sure the best recourse.
Whether talking to a manager for refund
disputing credit card charge with bank on grounds of promised goods charged for but not delivered (alignment), etc. that claims dept may ask for proof/supporting written documentation

really if nothing is damaged or siezed then a stock truck should be alignable to stock specifications
it becomes hard when lift comes into play
2", 3", or more, starts making caster to where the wheel is too far back and hits the fender and supposedly does not handle as well as a sports car (doesn't matter to everyone)
and positive camber where the top of the tire tilts out causing outer edge wear
but only 1deg pos will not cause a shit ton
and non directional tires like BFG KO2 can always be flipped around halfway through their life to spread their wear out
it's just a pain because that adds more labor and if it's a hot state then the tire bead can potentially rip upon removal

it's the opposite with street cars
people who never Drove To Good Mountain View will be like "I want my low car even lower, to scrape oil pan on speed bump"
so they'll lower ride height
reducing their -1deg camber to -2deg
then they have to buy $500 upper control arms with adjustable threaded rod/nut to stick the top arm out farther correcting that back to -1deg
whereas a Taco around 0deg or whatever it starts with stock, on factory parts, then tilts out to +1deg when lifted and can look goofy from up front if you really stare because the wheels tilt out instead of straight up and down or slight tilt in

 

Took the Taco in to the recommended nearby shop for alignment number two.

Happened to cross paths with the tech post-alignment and got the skinny. Cam adjustment bolts work fine. Ball joint inspection pre-alignment, no issues that he saw. Made some minor adjustments and got me within spec all around. Also noticed my steering wheel was slightly off, he fixed that. Interesting.

Apparently he’s more OCD than I am and I like that in a tech.

He test drove post-alignment. All good. I’m happy, no need to worry about uneven wear but will rotate regularly.

Shop only charged me $40.

 

Hmmm. In a perfect world the "Before" numbers of shop #2 should more closely match the "Final" values of shop #1. Did you off road or have anything adjusted again after shop #1 and before shop #2?

 

Yeah this is a good point and I wondered as well. Haven’t wheeled since, but I hit a decent sized pot hole in my neighborhood on the way to the shop. Might or might not explain it. Or shop #1’s machine needs calibrated, don’t know. I have so little confidence in the first shop now that I’m pretty dismissive of the data from that first alignment.

 

I have gone through the same mind-drain exercises many times with these laser-computer machines that display and print values to the "100th" of degree. But upon comparison with different machines you then see things seem to be all over the lot and that comfort level erodes.

Then the multitude of questions begin. When were the machines last calibrated? Did one of the machines have a sensor dropped or similar impact that might cause errors? And on and on.

What you have discovered is one of the untold secrets of the alignment world that is not openly discussed IMHO. It is also why some of us started doing our own DIY alignments.

In the end the question becomes "how does it drive?" And, are the tires wearing evenly and is the steering wheel on center.

 

If I learned how to DIY alignment and had the tools I wouldn't mind doing it that way.
It's just angles and measurements.
I'm sure there's way to tell camber (lean in of tire) and toe (face in or out) as well as how square the frame is by putting a string box around the vehicle.
Not sure how to tell caster though.

You can have a vehicle aligned but steering wheel crooked. There is play in the steering rack that can't be accounted for.
If the wheel ends up crooked you adjust the toe same on both sides evenly until it's straight. Like a flat or quarter turn (both tie rods, same direction).
If steering wheel is crooked to right, you'd toe wheels to the right to bring it back in line.
Have to pay attention to what you're doing when doing that. Like if the vehicle has tie rods in front or behind the axle. Obviously extending a right front tie rod ahead of axle will push that wheel front out.
But one behind that axle pushes wheel front in.

A vehicle can have measurements within spec but annoying slightly crooked steering wheel. Better to fix that at the adjustable tie rods. Instead of fucking with the centered position of steering wheel onto splined shaft steering column.
Stuff like that can also potentially over-extend and ruin the clock spring.

Maybe it needed calibrated a while ago. Maybe they told the rep and he came out to calibrate it.
Maye the tech placed the read head wrong on the wheel. Depends on the wheel design. 5-spoke 17" TRD sport? Easy. It has 3 ribs per spoke that make centering the read head easy. Other wheel designs do not.
Move the read head up, it tilts outward giving you a false reading of positive camber. Move it forward, toe out. Backwards, toe in. And so on.
As someone said, in the end, kind of boils down to: how well it drives, if tires wear well, etc

OCD is a better quality to have in that line of work especially when things get complicated (many parts) which happens are cars get newer, but even old cars are still complicated

usually, a shop will have bosses that hold a tech accountable, and will grab them by the neck and force them to re-do their work if the customer is not happy
therefore it is in the tech's best interest to do their job well, because if it comes back a second time out of dissatisfaction to be corrected, that is more hours spent now correcting the first job, but this time it will not pay additional money, AKA cost money/work for free

re: wear and rotates
it's still gonna wear more on the rear tires, even if evenly across the tread pattern, because that's where it sends the power during street driving