1. Welcome to Tacoma World!

    You are currently viewing as a guest! To get full-access, you need to register for a FREE account.

    As a registered member, you’ll be able to:
    • Participate in all Tacoma discussion topics
    • Communicate privately with other Tacoma owners from around the world
    • Post your own photos in our Members Gallery
    • Access all special features of the site

Supercharger seventh injector versus upgraded six injectors

Discussion in 'Performance and Tuning' started by Rldanie, Apr 30, 2019.

  1. Aug 3, 2021 at 7:52 PM
    #81
    Shortman5

    Shortman5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Member:
    #100952
    Messages:
    2,725
    Gender:
    Male
    ..
    Vehicle:
    Supercharged TRD
    TRD S/C, ADS coilovers.
    Look Scotty,

    I’m sure you’re knowledgeable on engine building, and that’s great and all, but your not being helpful at all in these supercharger threads.

    Do you not think are well aware we don’t actually need the 4K in parts? We don’t a need another Dave Ramsey.

    you seem to really have a stick up your ass about superchargers. Did Kenne Bell hurt you? Was it Eaton Corp?

    BTW. If you knew anything about the 7th you would know it has NOTHING to do with idle or partial throttle.
     
  2. Aug 3, 2021 at 8:08 PM
    #82
    DJ_Rodriguez88

    DJ_Rodriguez88 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2021
    Member:
    #356708
    Messages:
    14
    Gender:
    Male
    Thanks everyone, this is all super helpful :thumbsup:

    What fuel trims should i be expecting to see given the setup?
     
  3. Aug 3, 2021 at 8:18 PM
    #83
    eon_blue

    eon_blue If I would, could you

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2016
    Member:
    #180213
    Messages:
    69,609
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Ryan
    Azusa, CA
    Vehicle:
    '04 TRD 3.4l 4x4 5sp manual Xtraca & '96 4runner 4x4 5spd manual
    You want your short and long term fuel trims been -10 and 10, closer to zero the better. Within that range is considered normal though.

    Too high, too lean. Too low, too rich
     
  4. Aug 3, 2021 at 8:27 PM
    #84
    Shortman5

    Shortman5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Member:
    #100952
    Messages:
    2,725
    Gender:
    Male
    ..
    Vehicle:
    Supercharged TRD
    TRD S/C, ADS coilovers.
    Only pay attention to fuel trims in closed loop. You should have some sort of OBD2 just to confirm what loop you’re running in but you can expect open loop WOT and high RPM. That’s when your standalone wideband into play and it is very necessary.

    Fuel trims should be closer to zero. That means the computer isn’t having to compensate for the amount of air being reported by the MAF.

    but like @eon_blue said, technically anything -10 and +10 are considered normal.

    Most 3.4s tend to run positive fuel trims. Especially with the way the supercharger converts the vacuum hoses to reading manifold vacuum. And from what I’ve seen even the most N/A 3.4s tens to trim more positive.

    In the case of trimming positive fuel trims it either means air is getting into the intake AFTER the MAF sensor or there’s an issue with fuel pressure or output but the injectors.

    In your case I would be trying to track down why you’re ECU is adding fuel at idle. It’s either the MAF is under reporting from being dirty or malfunctioning, your fuel pressure is too high for some reason, or one or more injectors are not functioning properly and allowing too much fuel.

    Start with cleaning the MAF. Look closely at the little wires down INSIDE the MAF to be sure they don’t have burnt on crud. Also Add MAF G/S PID to the OBD2 and tell us what it’s reporting at idle.

    if that seems to look okay we need to look at fueling and possibly the stock AFR/o2 sensor on the Downpipe before the first cat.

    Does it ever act funny on cold, warm, or hot starts?
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
  5. Aug 3, 2021 at 9:49 PM
    #85
    ROAD DOG

    ROAD DOG Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2019
    Member:
    #309830
    Messages:
    2,212
    Gender:
    Male
    Vehicle:
    2019 I4 WHITE SR PRERUNNER
    FEW
    names not scotty

    another on a SC thought his 7th only ame on 70%.................he was corrected

    by someone else NOT ME

    kenne wouldnt cobble together the shadetree knuckle busting i see here

    wonky tunes that are fighting each other................. thats stellar

    anytime U DISREGARD the basic Ur NOT helping URSELF

    thats ok yet on a public forum NO harm pointing out the fact

    nothing wrong with SCs

    i hadnt said not a single word against them

    havnt seen a good tune yet

    I KNOW about the 7th.............never said it was on at IDLE

    CAN Tell when someone is losing when they make up crap

    U didnt ask for help

    I did NOT offer help

    only pointed out what U disregard......................kinda defeats sucess
     
  6. Aug 4, 2021 at 12:09 PM
    #86
    DJ_Rodriguez88

    DJ_Rodriguez88 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2021
    Member:
    #356708
    Messages:
    14
    Gender:
    Male
    Still trying to diagnose my low, rough idle and rich conditions. Like i said the truck runs super well, feels smooth and has power, except for the idle. No code and recently passed California smog inspection
    Also, I need to track fuel consumption but I haven't been through my first tank of gas in this thing yet
    Added some metrics to the list as well as including data/setup from previous post so u guys dont have to find it on previous pages (i guess i should just put the setup in my signature)

    *EDIT*
    I drove it again a little longer, lots of hills and such, coolant temps eventually got to 85C (185F) and the trims leaned out a bit, still rich but better

    2.2 pulley
    URD 7th injector
    Walbro 190
    (a suspiciously quiet one, but i have the receipts from prev prev owner)
    K&N intake pipe
    stock exhaust
    24 heat range spark plugs (pulled 1 for a pic below, looks happy but slightly wet threads. Doing VCG and other gaskets soon)


    Idle - at idle its really rich
    short term fuel trim = 0 to -4.8 update -2 to +7 when engine warms up better
    long term fuel trim = -16.4 Gonna try cleaning the MAF/Throttle body/IAC valve update -10 to -12 when engine warms up better
    Coolant temp = 80C (176F) update 85C(185F)
    Intake Air Temp = 29C (84F)
    MAF = 4 to 6g/s (mostly under 5, was going to clean and re-read but i need to drill out the screw or something, i'll get back to this today)
    O2 sensor 1 = .59 to .67 quick wave pattern
    O2 sensor 2 = .005 to .060 slower wave pattern
    Throttle position = 9%. Shouldn't this be 1% or less? Don't have high idle tho (did more reading, i guess this is also close to normal for this truck)
    RPM = 675 (did more reading, i guess this is close to normal of 700)

    Partial Throttle - cruisin around town
    short term fuel trim -1 to -5 with occasional spikes to 3
    long term fuel trim -4 to -8

    Wide Open Throttle
    short term fuel trim 0
    long term fuel trim 5.5

    Here's a spark plug I pulled, AutoLite 5224 which is supposedly has a 24 heat range
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
  7. Sep 3, 2021 at 1:12 PM
    #87
    Clay_916

    Clay_916 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Member:
    #160686
    Messages:
    1,501
    Gender:
    Male
    Fort Collins, CO
    Vehicle:
    2000 x-cab 4x4
    5100's, All Pro 3" Standard leafs, 32" KM 2's
    Lot of misinformation in here. I personally would say Jon64 and ROADDOG are very knowledgeable. Your trims are fine but I'll try to clear things up. The net trim or actual fuel trim is the sum of the long and short term. If you have -10 LT and +10 ST you are perfect. The LT is simply the running average of the ST over some period of time. As seasons change, temps change, time of day changes... the LT and ST will be shifting all over the place but as Jon said as long as you're not pushing 20 in either direction the ST will be able to reel is back to 0. Just think of it like the amount of play the ECU has to adjust for air temp/density variance. The closer to 0 you are the more play you have. Oh and LTFTs are used during OL.

    It sounds like you're pretty avid and capable on this stuff and learning more by the day. The 7th kit is kind of a joke IMO. Unless you couple it will the ability to O2 skew you're basically doing nothing for closed loop by adding more fuel. I would look into the FIC6. It gets a little more tricky but it's still pretty basic and will be more than enough to get juicy AFRs for what the SC is pushing.
     
    Jon64l likes this.
  8. Sep 6, 2021 at 7:14 AM
    #88
    ROAD DOG

    ROAD DOG Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2019
    Member:
    #309830
    Messages:
    2,212
    Gender:
    Male
    Vehicle:
    2019 I4 WHITE SR PRERUNNER
    FEW


    superchargers are usually easy to to tune

    typical they run rich to a degree at idle.............as soon as U mash the pedal

    there is a transition hopefully not a stumble

    mid range when an engine is under load ( torque ) and its start to breathe / flex its power

    * torque the true motive power ........ torque peak the maximun cylinder filling also the biggest BANG in the cylinder !!!

    mid range is where the tune is important

    difficult to achieve sitting still in the garage..................better on a dyno

    WOT with a supercharger really depends on boost

    superchargers are just about over by then a litttle rich ..........some stand off

    u got what u got

    its like only 1 club in Ur golf bag that can

    drive

    sand wedge

    & putt
     
  9. Sep 21, 2021 at 3:06 PM
    #89
    jevey1

    jevey1 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2019
    Member:
    #282495
    Messages:
    17
    Gender:
    Male
    DJ_Rodriguez88

    Were you able to resolve your issues? I have the exact same problem going on with my truck. -18% LTFT at Idle and around town driving. STFT at or near 0%. Extended highway driving and my LTFT will come up to about -14% and the STFT will again settle out to around 0%.

    I recently upgraded my fuel injectors to the HP-831's from motor west performance, due to detonation at high load low RPM lean out (on the highway coming into a hill). I was unable to tune around this problem with the 7th injector as stated by someone else earlier, because even if I added fuel with the 7th the ECU would pull it back to to try to maintain 14.7Afr. The only way I could avoid detonation was to either kick it down a gear or get off the throttle all together.

    The upgraded fuel injectors have eliminated the detonation, I am now using the base URD timing map, and I have changed the fuel map to all Zero's and do not need any additional fuel.

    I have the following:
    Black TRD supercharger
    2.2 pulley
    7th injector
    HP-831 upgraded fuel injectors
    Stand alone Wideband AFR&Boost gauge
    Walbaro 190 fuel pump
    Iridium IK22 spark plugs
    Cooler thermostat
    All new vacuum lines

    I use OSB studio to record my laptop screen while driving and review the parameters after.

    My truck will idle rough randomly, I've seen the idle as low as 670RPM. Also while pulling a trailer if I try to stay in closed loop while beginning a slight grade then the truck will overcompensate for fuel, AFR as low as 8.8 causing the truck to stumble and run rough. (It will not do this everytime and only does this while pulling a trailer) I have reviewed the screen captures and I don't see any of the parameters change ahead of the others to cause the overly rich condition.


    I would like to understand what is going on instead of throwing parts at the truck, but I've tried everything I can think of and looks like I'll be throwing a MAF at it soon to see it makes a difference.
     
  10. Sep 21, 2021 at 3:16 PM
    #90
    Jon64l

    Jon64l Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Member:
    #174799
    Messages:
    1,628
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jon
    Vehicle:
    2000 4runner, 1996 Tacoma
    @jevey1
    For closed loop, do you have the Afr wire hooked up? Should get your part throttle down into the 13s.
     
  11. Sep 21, 2021 at 4:16 PM
    #91
    jevey1

    jevey1 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2019
    Member:
    #282495
    Messages:
    17
    Gender:
    Male
    I had followed the URD installation instructions to the letter, so I'm not sure which wire was for AFR? Perhaps you could clarify?
     
  12. Sep 21, 2021 at 4:39 PM
    #92
    Jon64l

    Jon64l Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Member:
    #174799
    Messages:
    1,628
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jon
    Vehicle:
    2000 4runner, 1996 Tacoma
    Off hand I'm not sure, but its a wire that goes to the O2 circuit. It may have a separate tab/map in the software to play with. It's been awhile.
     
  13. Sep 21, 2021 at 4:52 PM
    #93
    jevey1

    jevey1 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2019
    Member:
    #282495
    Messages:
    17
    Gender:
    Male
    I will certainly give the instructions another look over to be sure! I am running the R4 software and don't recall seeing anything in there about he AFR/O2 Circuit.
     
  14. Sep 21, 2021 at 4:55 PM
    #94
    jruiz555

    jruiz555 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2019
    Member:
    #279080
    Messages:
    1,178
    Gender:
    Male
    7th injector, 2.2 pulley, volvo maf sensor and FR7BHXS spark plugs. Ditch the k&n and use a stock box with oem filter. After running the FR7 spark plugs its been pretty smooth, i havent been hitting the gas hard because its like 5 bucks a gallon now :)
     
  15. Sep 21, 2021 at 6:27 PM
    #95
    Jon64l

    Jon64l Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Member:
    #174799
    Messages:
    1,628
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jon
    Vehicle:
    2000 4runner, 1996 Tacoma
  16. Sep 22, 2021 at 8:45 AM
    #96
    Shortman5

    Shortman5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Member:
    #100952
    Messages:
    2,725
    Gender:
    Male
    ..
    Vehicle:
    Supercharged TRD
    TRD S/C, ADS coilovers.
    The AFR/o2 circuit you guys are discussing is NOT user programmable on the 7th injector.

    from URD it’s set to start enriching closed loop at 3psi down to 13.5AFR until it hits open loop. (this is why I don’t like the 7th)

    You CAN change the point at which it turns on in the R4. I can’t tell you exactly what tab it’s under but it’s in the “options” area.
     
  17. Sep 23, 2021 at 10:17 AM
    #97
    jevey1

    jevey1 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2019
    Member:
    #282495
    Messages:
    17
    Gender:
    Male
    I do have the AIC/Timing Calibrator installed, and I do see 13.5 AFR when I'm driving in closed loop so I am guessing that is where that number comes from, thank you for pointing that out!

    I've looked at the vehicle specific wiring diagram I was given from URD and used to install the AIC/T. Attached below. That wire is connected. I will take another look in R4 software to see if there are parameters there which can be changed. However I don't see how this will correct he -18% LTFT value I am seeing during idle.

    Also for the other comments, I am running stock MAF, stock air box and stock intake tube.

    I plan to do a boost leak test, and check for air leaks around the new injectors, or intake manifold gasket.

    I will do some research on the benifits or running a Volvo MAF sensor, unless you have a link to it already?
    upload_2021-9-23_14-41-40.jpg

    I did test the exhaust for leaks and found leaks on the gaskets at both sides of the 2nd catalytic converter. This has been resolved, but did not make any improvements to the negative AFR values.


    Thanks again all for the feedback!
     
  18. Sep 23, 2021 at 10:58 AM
    #98
    Jon64l

    Jon64l Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Member:
    #174799
    Messages:
    1,628
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jon
    Vehicle:
    2000 4runner, 1996 Tacoma
    @jevey1
    Didn't you put in larger injectors? Did you scale the map accordingly? Sounds like computer is pulling fuel because there is more of it now.
     
  19. Sep 23, 2021 at 11:02 AM
    #99
    jevey1

    jevey1 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2019
    Member:
    #282495
    Messages:
    17
    Gender:
    Male
    So I confirmed with motorwest that the new HP-831 injectors have the same flow values as the factory brown injectors I was using. However the brown injectors were original and the new injectors made a significant improvement to reduce/remove knock at low RPM high load driving.
     
  20. Sep 23, 2021 at 12:06 PM
    #100
    Shortman5

    Shortman5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Member:
    #100952
    Messages:
    2,725
    Gender:
    Male
    ..
    Vehicle:
    Supercharged TRD
    TRD S/C, ADS coilovers.
    1. I have the same injectors. Depending on who did the flow test they’re all a little different. I think 5.0 days they’re 190cc. Someone else says 165 and ME says 150 or so. Supposedly stock is 140? That being said I’m not having near the same issue. Something else is going on.


    2. If your AFR is changing in closed loop to 13.5 stop worrying about if it wired in correctly. The only way for it to enrich in closed loop is for you to have tapped the AFR signal. It obviously is.
     

Products Discussed in

To Top