Death Valley Off-Road Adventures

Typically, there's a altitude restriction around National Parks. Right now, that's 2000' above the highest feature in the park. So if the highest feature is 10000', the ceiling for overflight is 12000--hight of the highest feature + 2000'.

 

the draft management plan has proposed altitudes of 1000' for helicopters & 1500' for fixed wing craft...

 

Both of those altitudes are at higher risk for birdstrike.

 

For reference the ATMP is a good thing, not a bad thing, and is far more restrictive than the current regulations (which do not restrict commercial flight paths or altitudes in any meaningful way at all):

https://parkplanning.nps.gov/projectHome.cfm?projectId=103441

DVNP has been exempted from needing an ATMP for awhile since there are practically no air tours over the park and thus it wasn’t a priority (i.e. the park wasn’t being impacted by its lack of restrictions). No one is asking to do more commercial tours at this time and those few that have agreements to run them with the park hardly use their present slots. Rather the law says DVNP needs to have a management plan and they are finally getting around to writing one even though it is a present at moot point since the average number of DV air tours is one tour every other year (yes, that low).

That said, it is always worth making your opinion known during the comment period.

 

There is a whole section of the CFR devoted to air traffic over national parks. While the CFR does not forbid private flights, it does restrict them. My understanding is the ATMP is what enables tours.

AOPA also offers guidelines to mitigate the impact of general aviation on the parks.

The bulk of today’s traffic is GA to and from the airport.

My personal opinion is that commercial traffic is not good for the parks. Depending on the volume, it does present higher risk. And in DV, there are many places where an emergency landing would have an adverse impact. That and planes take away from the park experience.

 

Tours are already allowed over the park right now under an IOA made directly between the tour operators and DVNP and have been for about a decade. National parks are supposed to have an ATMP with tour coordination going through the FAA but some have been exempted and allowed to use voluntary agreements directly between the park and the operators instead if they have less than 50 flights a year. DVNP was one of the exempted ones and already has agreements in place with operators that have no restrictions on routes or altitudes. Fortunately the operators aren’t hardly ever actually running any tours but as written they can presently go wherever they want at pretty much whatever altitude.

The current IOA the operators can operate under allows up to 37 tour flights a year over any path at any altitude of the operators’ choosing. The draft ATMP will restrict this to 2 flights a year (yeah, that’s two flights in an entire year) over a small set of approved routes.

I agree commercial air tours don’t belong in almost any National Park and am happy the draft ATMP is as restrictive as it is. Slamming the door shut on the existing IOA is a win in my book. The draft ATMP essentially makes regular air tours impossible and makes it extremely unlikely any of us will ever see one unless we found out in advance when one of the two flights allowed per year was flying and plunked ourselves under the route.

 

I love seeing rare things in DV. I'd better get to plunking myself down.

j/k

Back on topic, this conversation - both its content, and the respectful dialog - is what makes this one of my favorite threads (and TW one of my favorite forums). So nice to not simply be subjected to the "I can insult louder so I must be right," mentality out there on so much of the rest of the internet today.

 

I wasn’t aware the IOA was a replacement for ATMP. I’ve always understood you could request and be allowed interim operating authority as a temporary measure only. Not decades.

In the summary FAA document, it suggests they've been operating under the IOA since 2009 and for a maximum of 67 flights, mostly by heli companies. The Federal Register also contains a list but implies 2005 was the approval year and for a little more than a hundred flights. The planning document says the number of flights have been quite low and implies, thru polling, that some operators haven't flown in a while and that others are operating at significantly lower numbers.

IDK, my interpretation of the numbers suggest flights should be cancelled by the ATMP due to a lack of interest.

 

Yeah “interim” takes on a whole different meaning in the government…

That’s essentially what the draft does. It bases the approved number (two per year max) on the recent average of less than one per year rather than the IOA of 67 per year. The number is so low one could make the argument that zero is just as appropriate.

There was a public meeting yesterday now archived on YouTube if you want to hear what the NPS and FAA reps had to say. Like most such meetings it is glacially slow to listen to…

 

I've attended a few of those in my day...just cannot bear to listen like that.

 

Agreed and damn do those two know a lot about planes and National Parks. lol

 

Have any of you guys ever actually camped at Furnace Creek or Stovepipe? What's it like? Thinking about heading out to DV this winter, usually I stay in Beatty and drive in early morning for sunrise pictures. If I stayed in FC or Stovepipe it will get me much closer to destinations early morning that I would want to be it. The problem is the camping looks pretty meh. Sites on top of sites, no privacy (no trees obviously).

I haven't camped in general for a long time, but just looking ahead at possibilities. Simple tent camping.

 

Yes. Parking lots.

 

Thats not true. There are some decent sites at Furnace Creek. I had to go way back to Apr 2016 I posted in this thread on a family trip with our pop up trailer. starting post #1014 on page 51. Cant remember the site #'s theres a row of trees with nice sites that back right up to them. Those sites get booked early so book now for next spring if you want those ones

 

Not 100% true, you're right. But for the most part, it's like camping in a giant parking lot.

 

98% look just like this…
(Stovepipe Wells)

 

Hence my question. Whenever I pull over at that spot and go into the store right there, I look over there at the people on top of each other and think...."that does not look fun".

I was messing around on google maps and see Furnace Creek has spots with a little more privacy (some small trees in areas) but still not great. Maybe I'll stick to my cheap Air B n B's in Beatty. Gas there is significantly cheaper too which is nice.

 

Let's be honest. A lot of the camping in DV, from Wildrose to Furnace Creek, is pretty open. It's a desert after all

That idea of Air BnB is nice.

 

I only stayed at Furnace Creek once, and @HB Taco is right, if you get one of the sites furthest from entrance station, there is a line of tall trees lining the access road to the airport with a couple campsites near there where you’ll have evening shade. I avoid Stovepipe Well, one large parking lot for RVs with a handful of tent sites at edge of pavement next to the dunes. Texas Springs is near Furnace Creek and marginally better in that they direct the RVs to Sunset Campground so while you are still cheek to jowl, all you neighbors are either tents or smaller towed campers and teardrops. Fortunately there is dispersed camping not far from either Stovepipe or Furnace Creek

 

I’ve never camped in a vehicle at Stovepipe, it is indeed a parking lot, but tent camping behind the fence is ok. No better than OK though. I’ve had decent sites at FC, sure it’s busy and tight but no worse than many public campgrounds. I also camped at Mesquite Spring years ago and thought it was pretty nice for a public National Park campground. Not much point when there’s all the great dispersed sites, though, unless you are vehicle-limited.