Haltech Stand alone ECU supercharger 3.4, SILVER BULLET TUNE www.snpspeed.com

It's great to see that you ended up going to a standalone. They make such a huge difference on our Toyotas, especially with the timing maps. I ran a Megasquirt on both a turbo 3rz and a S/C 3rz and both trucks saw a huge difference. The S/C truck, though, really saw the same big difference you're describing once the timing was dialed in. The truck becomes so much more responsive on the low end it makes regular around town driving so much more fun. I'm interested to hear about your continuing results you get from it, especially when you can tune it in the cooler temps.

 

Late to this party and been more than a while since I racked my brain with this stuff but just wanted to say been running a turbo at various boost levels with reg gas and e85 on a fic6 as a DD for over 5 years with very few issues.

If I had to do the SC again I would probably go fic6. The issue with the low rpm ping is just that the boost comes on so violently and without warning the ECU can't even react with anything other than cutting timing and by that point you've lost so much power momentum [wtf did I just say?] it just feels like the engine took a shit and died. It's just kind of a sloppy way to make power in general (SC) but the fic can get more gas in there based on a few different parameters including boost or throttle position so there are for sure ways around the huge surge the SC is capable of delivering at those low rpms. It has 02 skewing as well to keep the trims under control.

Anyway, just wanted to put my 2 cents out there for anyone thinking you can't do this shit for cheap. And I will say I think the SC with a fic6 (larger injectors and pump cough$$cough) on e85 would be quite savage.

Oh and for the FMU questions earlier don't know if they were addressed, but the issue would be the ecu and fuel trims. You need some way to communicate with the O2 sensors, IE low jack them, or the ECU will just keep cutting the extra fuel trying to achieve 14.7 AFR while in CL.

 

Only thing keeping me from going FIC is having to tune and messing with resistors. I just don’t want to have to mess with trying to get trims and AFRs in spec from idle to open loop red line. Seems like it could turn into a massive issue if it’s your main beater.

 

Yes there are other options and ways to get there,
If one is running a supercharger though it’s really important to have a methonal or water setup for cooling (Supercharged) especially when it’s 70-80-90-100 degrees out. There’s just no other option.
Fuel= fuel injectors, fuel pump lack of fuel are not an issue with methonal.
It covers the spread for the needed fuel with ease.

But it’s hard to tune the open loop and closed loop at the same time to keep both side happy.

I can tune the closed loop to 11.5 AFR easily and it runs better but there is a night and day difference
with the new power at the lower end with the haltech plus timing tuned.

Took it for a drive last night at 65 degrees and what a difference,
Can’t wait till the 40 degrees temperatures come

 

It was for sure a cat and mouse game. The fact that I enjoyed it was probably what made it seem "easy" but yeah there is so much nuance to the tuning. Being able to truly plug and play has a lot of merits. I didn't do any of the resistor tricks off the top of my head and was still able to play with the timing but doing it over again I wouldn't even mess with those inputs at all. Much more power to be had eliminating the need to cut timing via fuel enriching in my experience. All I really have to look at is 02 and manifold pressure and I have pretty nice AFRs everywhere, still getting 17-19 mpgs with 32's.

 

Yeah I agree on the methanol. Like I said, I would try to get it done with just more fuel and probably e85 if I did it again but I suspect you are correct and I would for sure have a good meth kit on standby just in case.

Anyway, you're doing good work out here my friend. So many ways to attack this issue and the more info we have in the knowledge pool the better so I commend you and look forward to the progress.

 

Haltech is state of the art!
Fic6 is not available but in a few places and limited.
7th injector uses a CD disc and old technology limited.

But they all have ups and downs and issues regardless including the haltech.

But to have the open loop, closed loop and MAF to be removed from the system is a win!!! For me, AND one can switch back in a matter of minutes if you want the OEM ECU working or Emissions

Just another option for others to see

And for the auto guys the haltech can control all the shift points and rpms for the transmission

And can control the methonal spraying too if you want instead of stand alone methonal,
Being able to dial your tuning is a big deal for added power

 

My stock 2RZ feels like it picks up 20hp when the temps go from 100 to 60°F. Your 5VZ will probably feel like double that.

Are you talking about the stock ECU? If so, it's probably not a case of the ECU being unable to keep up with transient conditions, but rather something like the MAF not reacting quickly enough or the AE not throwing enough fuel at the engine. I would have thought that Toyota would do something to prevent that being an issue.

EDIT: The stock O2 sensor is definitely not fast enough to be useful for transients. See below.

I'm not familiar with the FIC6, but I recommend that any standalone ECU controlling E85 have a provision for a flex fuel sensor. Pump E85 is such inconsistent crap that you need the ECU to compensate automatically or you're going to be testing and mixing-down your own to a consistent percentage constantly. That, and you're likely going to use a flex fuel sensor to do it anyway, so it might as well be in the vehicle.

WBO2 controllers nowadays typically have at least one extra programmable voltage output that can be configured to mimic a stock sensor, even a narrowband. I use Innovate LC-2s currently.

That said, it's IMO probably not trying to maintain 14.7 under boost because it's expected that > X airflow at Y rpm is more than the engine flows NA and is probably boost. Boost + 14.7:1 = warranty claims.

I looked at the FSM and it's hard to decipher from it what the factory strategy does. They show an AFR vs. voltage graph characteristic of a WBO2, but the operating signal waveform they show is exactly what a narrowband sensor would do. Maybe it's a technical error?

Any decent standalone is going require all of that though. It should also be capable of running closed-loop all the time with a WBO2.

 

[/QUOTE]Any decent standalone is going require all of that though. It should also be capable of running closed-loop all the time with a WBO2.[/QUOTE]

Any decent standalone is going to require a tuner with a dyno. No way would I ever tweak to tune myself except maybe for very minor stuff. If I’m going to spend that kind of cash I’m not risking NOT getting a professional to make it perfect.

 

It’s a roots SC so it just dumps 10 psi as soon as you hit the gas regardless of rpm/load/etc. all the ecu does is sees knock and cuts timing and by that point no amount of tuning is going to make it feel like you think it should at 10 psi.

I don’t know what engine you think we are talking about but in closed loop all this thing does is seek 14.7. Even the diagram you posted confirms that and it’s pretty clearly not a narrowband sensor.

I wouldn’t really care about an E sensor unless I was pushing over 2 bar manifold. The changes it would make can be handled pretty well with the stock ecus ability to cut timing. Off the top of my head it can cut up to 60 degrees and I’ve run close to 30 psi MAP on pump e85 and never seen it cut more than 49 degrees.

 

How are you seeing true timing?
and
HOW much BOOST you running?? When you say 30map do you mean like ~15 gauge pressure?

 

Just reading the advance on a basic OBDII tool. Not sure on "true timing" but the gauge will display +/- 30 degrees from what ever that point is and yeah 16 psi boost pressure but I'm at 5000 ft altitude so MAP is a little more meaningful. Ambient pressure is something like 12.5 off the top of my head so about 29 MAP is the highest I've run.

 

From what I gather it depends on how your OBD2 reports on timing. Mine normally reports anywhere from ~11-20 so I assume it’s not reporting “timing” but it’s reporting “timing advance”…that may not make any sense, I’m probably making some of this shit up.

But it is odd that you’re seeing up to 49 degrees of cut and normally 30s timing numbers. It’s pretty well documented that a lot of guys are seeing numbers consistent with what I have.

I do wonder if this is a AUTO or manual trans thing. IIRC @1997tacomav6 reported timing numbers I thought sounded high. Somebody knows what’s going on but I sure as fuck don’t know jack shit.

 

Whatever timing number comes over the OBD2 data stream is just what the ECU has calculated and commanded. What's happening in the engine bay has to be verified in the engine bay.

What happens when you disable the knock sensor?

Yes, it is clearly not a narrowband sensor, but why does the signal waveform look like that of a narrowband sensor? My point was that you can't tell what the ECU is doing based on that information.

Is the stock ECU good because it cuts a truckload of timing or is it bad for that reason? You've said both. There's also the issue of AFR and octane change based on ethanol percentage.

You don't know what your actual timing is nor what the baseline is, but I'm the one that doesn't know what engine we're talking about.

I'm not looking for a fight and I only want to contribute to 997tacomav6's thread, but I'm going to defend myself too.

 

@Dirty Dude what do you mean? How can you calculate timing in the engine bay? Timing is controlled by the ECU…

I realize that the OBD2 isn’t really reporting timing like you would see if we could actually pull the maps up. I was just highlighting the fact that auto guys seem to different timing advance numbers than Auto guys do. The timing that I see is consistent with what other automatic guys see.

I’m just curious if manual ECUs run more timing than Auto ECUs

 

No you're exactly right. It gets a bit confusing talking about timing with terms like retarding advance and vice versa. I think what I said may have been a bit confusing also. Basically there is a the factory timing setting and we will call that 0. From that point the ECU can advance or retard (the tiing retard... confusing) 30 degrees so you have 60 degrees total of available retard, or 30 degrees advance and 30 degrees retard, however you want to think about it. When I said 49 degrees retard I meant -19 on the scanner, or 19 retard from the 0 setting. With my tune now I am seeing up to full advance with cruising and around -10 when under max boost, ~11 psi.. 25 MAP, in both open and closed loop.

Detonation suppression is one of the dominant factors driving gasoline engine design and it's an ever prevalent issue. It's not surprising to see a wide range of timing numbers across seemingly consistent setups. I mean you've probably experience yourself how on those peak summer days your engine might randomly run like shit. Its because the few extra degrees of air temp are pushing you over that 30 degree retard and you're pinging.

 

Here's a picture I found in less than 15 seconds.

If you can't connect the dots here I really don't know what else to say to you. The reason you can't tell what the ECU is doing is because you cut that diagram from a diagnostics protocol (lol).

Anyway... yeah I can see you're just trying to be helpful. It's quite clear you don't have a lot of experience with this engine though so maybe just sit back and learn some shit before you start trying to correct everyone.

 

This thread is about THE HALTECH so let’s stay focused here PLEASE with Haltech info for others to learn,
DONT want this thread going off in a different direction.
start a separate one if others want too

 

Going forward with the haltech my situation is I have a check engine light that shows up on the
Haltech ECU and not on the OEM ECU when rehooked up.
And the rpm needle is in slow motion at the 3k area when actually the rpms are at 5k.
I talked to Gabe and the way you address a check engine light is you have to open up the software on your computer to look to see what’s going on.
An OBII reader doesn’t work with a scanner
Also he said the rpm can be adjusted in the setup software.
Will keep you updated going forward

 

@1997tacomav6 what are your AFRs in boost part throttle, and WOT from 2000-5500?

Did you mention that once you hit boost it drops directly to 12AFR at any boost?