4th generation - timing? details?

Gladiator and Tacoma are the only Manuals left

 

This is 2GR-FKS, in production since 2015 and was first used in the 2016 Tacoma on September 10, 2015. Became adopted by other Lexus and Toyota models, which used older versions of the same engine block:



I did mention multiple times on this forum and in my above posts, it is Fall 2023 when it all ends, because it will be redesigned inside-out and underneath. Now, I cannot speak on MY 2023 possibly dropping the manual, but that is not likely at all and it should carry on through then.

Toyota has already spent a lot of money, shifting over the assembly tooling to Mexico, used for the TRD V6 models with the RC62F 6-Speed manual transmission.


Mating that RC62F to any newer 2.4L Turbo (T24A-FTS) or a powerful hybrid version of that, is not really workable. The torque rating is around 300 lb-ft from what I hear on the current transmission, down from the previous 2nd generation truck's RA60F which had a rating of 345 lb-ft.


The transverse application of the new 2.4L Turbo, is rated at 317 lb-ft and will be much higher for the Tacoma and 4Runner.

Unless Toyota is committed to developing an all-new manual transmission, similar to the MTI550 in our new T6 vehicles at Ford rated at 410 lb-ft, don't expect a manual in the 2024 Tacoma. The investment just isn't there, as outside of the 3.5 V6, there is no use for it.





Personally for me, I have barely entered my 30s and having owned mostly manual transmission vehicles since 16 and working now in this field for a decade, there's a deeper cultural reason for the decline and omission of manuals in the USA. Changing demographics and more.

When learning to drive about nearly 16 years ago, I'll admit I was very privileged and my father bought my first car for me. Having immigrated to the US, my parents grew up with manual transmissions, excluding some luxury vehicles driven/owned by my grandfathers.

Visiting Europe and Africa from stateside 25+ years back after first relocating, I was both fascinated and repulsed as a kid, at how simple mundane family vehicles like minivans or sedans, which my dad either rented (airport rentals) or family/family friends drove, were almost all manual transmissions and not solely sports cars, rally/tuners, pickups, or rugged 4x4s that "fit the character" of a row your own.

It just seemed so weird to me and off-putting. Like seeing a stickshift Avalon or Camry XLE (not literal). That most family beige-mobiles were not soul-sucking torque converter powered cars. Felt so odd watching my dad go from our automatic Dodge Grand Caravan to piloting a similar stickshift Chrysler Voyager or VW Sharan across the pond, on the roads of London from Heathrow to greater England or on the autobahn.

From that confusion+disgust, a weird love/hate dichotomy developed between me and the manual transmission as a kid car enthusiast. I only got to see any on vacation or in a cool uncle's car. Soon enough I became adamant as a pre-teen, my first car wouldn't be an auto and that I couldn't resist the urge anymore. I had to "join the (manual) club".

Now, being that it wasn't my money paying for my first car, my dad wanted me behind the wheel of a safely mundane V6 compact/midsize family sedan with a lethargic 4/5-speed auto. I wanted a stickshift 4x4 or sporty compact. He was incensed at my demand for a stick new or used and called me "backward", for asking in the first place and adamantly refused to honor the request.

At the end of the day, he was a stern middle aged doctor with a very conservative and pretentious outlook on motoring and not a budding young engineer-in-training/gearhead like I was. His idea of proper automotive taste, was owning large luxury sedans like his Jaguar XJ and newly acquired Arnage, among others. High performance stuff like AMG and BMW M/Alpina have never made any sense to him, unless deemed palatable in the case of AMG.

And for more humble purposes for me then, a compact/midsize sedan or crossover. sufficed. I didn't deserve anything flashy nor too brash & bold or simply rugged. Even if used like an old 4Runner/4x4 or compact pickup. Had to be something inoffensive/vanilla, unibody, automatic, and safe for "image purposes".

Rejected me getting a Tacoma X-Runner/ TRD OR, Wrangler, or FJ as a first vehicle. Considered them too big, obnoxious, and "intimidating" in his opinion for me to be driving 15 years back. He honestly hates trucks with a passion, despite living and practicing in Texas for a quarter century, in a hot bed of recreational off-roading. We are polar opposites.

In the end, I initially lost that battle and wasn't allowed to use my savings either. With some bad-to-good luck, 9 months later I got into my first manual car after an insurance total loss reimbursement (stolen) and pushing hard for what I wanted this time and dealer-traded the almost-replacement G35 automatic out for a manual G35 Sport, which he refused on initially.

After the automatic "G" SUV which joined the G35 in 2009 (a big shock), I quietly financed my first little car in my own name in 2013 and it was a manual transmission as well, a BRZ. Had it only 5 months, was terribly slow and useless to park in Manhattan. Moved back home to UK for my first fulltime job at JLR.

Outside of a few luxury cars (G12 Bimmer) and Raptors, since 2013 nearly all of my vehicle collection across 4 continents are manual.

Here in Michigan and also in Texas, I often leave my cars unlocked (when devoid of any valuables). Never been afraid to run into anywhere with them running either, PROVIDED it's one of my manuals. I am much more guarded with my fewer autos or rarer collectibles (manuals) that might prove to be susceptible to professional thieves taking a greater interest (and having the skills to steal them).

Population and demographic changes in the US, have played into the loss of consumer desire for manuals, which exacerbated a decline in engineering for them due to lack of demand.

As a naturalized immigrant, I have to say, a lot of us came/coming to the states have parents and/or relatives who look at cars strictly as a status symbol or point A-to-B tool. Motorsports and offroading for sport, is not a thing for many of them. Cars are not looked at the same way they are by Americans or West Europeans, as an expression of rugged individuality. My parents came from very affluent overseas upbringings 50ish-60 years back, but many friends of theirs didn't and were stuck with powerless cars, with engines smaller than 2 liters. If they could even afford a car at all.

For them, living in a highly developed nation with high traffic, the driving experience is about being as isolated as possible from the "task" of driving and having less work to do, all while still honoring the basics and not relying fully on technology Doing your own shifting is considered to be primitive to them, best left behind in the old world.

Americans, especially white Americans (like Germans and Australians) take greater pleasure in roughing it for fun outdoors via camping or going offroad. The rest, are not trying to do that in general, especially if not from a "Western" nation. Save for some Asian nations, typically this is not done recreationally, unless for Dakar. This indifference is typical among many African immigrants, as opposed to others. Less inclined to drive for leisurely purposes and more into automotive prestige (luxury, comfort) than being gearheads. Also much more likely to avoid manuals and chose automatics more. Not being prejudicial just my personal observation, as I would know personally. My parents and I are the only ones in my family that ever learned to drive both auto and manual. My sisters never have and hopefully won't get stranded overseas in an emergency.

My father might have had fun driving stick on vacations in the 90s and 2000s, but is allergic to it on U.S. soil and shuns my vehicle collection at every opportunity, except my automatic 7er (same as his wife's). My mother herself, has not driven manual since 1992 when they left England the first time. She can't be bothered to drive any of my manuals, despite having learned on them and doing so for 15 years prior to moving stateside nearly 30 years ago. They have never been happy at my taste in high performance vehicles and offroading either. in being rather uppity (old world BS).

In my free time, I offer manual driving lessons to the kids or younger relatives of acquaintances/friends/family, in addition to my own friends and family who might not know how to drive manual. Many of the adults rather arrogantly pass on it, often implying the idea there is something wrong with people who favor driving stick in this day and age (ie Fast Furious stereotypes, hickish, luddite, etc) and that they're "above it" and
too "normal" LOL.

Often with other young guys who are also Millennials or Gen Z, they often make the weak excuse in response, that "I just want to relax when driving bro"...SMDH These are the same clowns, whom prior to the excellent 10R80 10SP automatic for 2018, drove older automatic Mustang GTs with pride. Buying muscle cars with autos for the image. I can forgive that on a BMW 6-Series or 4-Series, but not a V8 American muscle car.

I only feel for disabled (vets) or older people in general, who choose autos because of ailments. While I definitely roll my eyes at people who want the rugged, off-roading or sporty image for the Gram. yet cannot drive a stick to save their lives.

Remember the 80s and 90s Toyota truck ads, showing customers slapping gears while plowing through dirt or snow? Marty McFly's truck ring a bell? That's where the rugged Toyota 4x4 image caught modern appeal beyond FJ40 and why Toyota still draws many in. I call them poseurs, but not everyone.

Anyway, as manufacturers, we have been forced to cater these types more, since relying on actual serious enthusiasts is dead-ended business wise.

The only excuses should be for not buying a manual Tacoma TRD or Gladiator is that "dealers are difficult", "it's not offered anymore", or "I'm disabled/my knees can't handle it". Not, "traffic is..." or "my wife can't..." Well? Then teach her! I typically drive my Raptor to work, but I have other Ford vehicles that are manual. Traffic can be awful, but it ain't that serious managing the clutch.

Manuals have been dropped, because those of us in the business know of the many hurdles to overcome in justifying them going forward and the investment in bringing them up to par with newer automatics, isn't worth it when the public doesn't want them enough. How can a 6-Speed Manual with a lower torque rating compare to a constantly improved 10-Speed Automatic transmission? The continuous improvement in autos makes it an apple to oranges comparison and no longer justifiable.

I do definitely blame the buying habits of certain generations, as baby boomers cannot carry the market for manuals forever. Most are elderly now and did their part buying them for many years into early retirement years. Clearly a disconnect happened somewhere and younger generations buy automatic much more as primarily driving appliances or not at all, segmenting their manual choices to certain niche products only like the WRX or Civic Si. More importantly, most Millennials and Gen Z who drive manual, typically buy pre-owned vehicles, as they cannot afford to buy new in most cases. I definitely can buy new and vote with my wallet, but I am not everyone.

I do truly miss the days when even exotics were manual only and were mostly driven by serious enthusiasts with means and not just any stupid influencer who wants to impress and only knows how to (barely) steer, hit the gas and brakes. If you couldn't handle a 348/355 or a Diablo, you got an S600 Coupe or an SL600 or an automatic Porsche. Today every clown drives Italian exotics or high performance Euros, since DCTs/automated manuals and PDK became a thing. I respect celebrities who knew how to drive old school exotics and not today's easy as child's play cars.

I use all of my vehicles like they were meant to be used, except for the most expensive of them that was leased until recently and bought after lease for novelty purposes.

Even though I could go out and get anything I wanted vehicle wise (not from my salary as an FPDC engineer/FPP), I have been prudent and spent wisely, mostly avoiding above $100k and save for a few which surpassed that (leased, subsidized), have never acquired anything more than double that. I am not into exotics much, due to the tacky and poseur image which is so rampant. And more importantly, no 3rd pedal!

TO Gnarman: (Quote Feature is messed up)

Loves it, even as being heavily involved with Bronco and Ranger across US and Australia. The Gladiator isn't perfect, but drives very softly for what it is in our opinion. I like the slightly truckier feel of the Tacoma's gearbox, shift knob, and longer throws (when I get to drive it), over the Gladiator box which is much more car like to me. The JL/JT manual seems to refined compared to the more rugged unit in the JK, which harkens back more to the Willys style of yore.

Jeep was very desperate to modernize the JL Wrangler (JT Gladiator) as much as possible, to satisfy its new audience that buys it as a family vehicle. since the 4 door Unlimited came out in 2006. To be honest, I don't venture off brand as I used to and typically buy/collect BMW, Ford, JLR, and Toyota vehicles only. My partner, is more open-minded and has worked for Ford much longer than me.

I know that others experiences issues with D478 transmission, but since ours is not driven that much, can't say it's unreliable. Got a new '21 Bronco First Edition 4dr 10AT in fact (delivered weeks ago), while I am waiting for my own 2dr Badlands SQ 7MT to be fulfilled for MY 2022.

 

Mom said we're not allowed to have 4th gen till we fix all the issues with 3rd gen.

 

Wow, I don’t disagree with 99% of what you say, but you say…….. so much. I’m so confused.

 

https://c.tenor.com/HYBKG4ZNb5AAAAAC/everything-is-fine-itsfine.gif

 

@Carmaker1, not to hijack this thread, but from your knowledge/viewpoint, when will the chip issue improve? When will the levee break and new inventory actually hit the showroom? I live in Metro Atlanta, and it is slim pickings among ALL manufacturers in my area, and I assume, the rest of the country, as well.

I'm in the market for a new truck, but between elevated prices and little to no inventory, I'm on the sidelines waiting for inventory that may not show up for a very long time.

Have any insight?

 

@Dogtown Darren,
Well owners with clean unmolested Tacoma’s should take advantage of the this market! Check out the link to see what older Tacoma’s are selling for!

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2003-toyota-tacoma-33/

 

Kids these days don’t even know how to tame a horse or put on horseshoes. Spoiled brats i tell you.
I’m also going to teach mine to churn butter!

 

God Damn about time someone started laying down the law around here!
I also make them feed the barn animals, clean the stalls before they get breakfast to walk 6 miles in the snow up hill to school each way. After school make them do their chores and 2 hours of homework before bed @ 7 or

 

Hi, I just saw this post. From what I know, we are having to shuffle things around and choose what gets what sooner. In some cases, we are having to delay certain redesigns and quickly rustle up minor updates to pass the time.

I don't think the situation will improve until sometime in 2023, but I am sure you already heard that before. Toyota is the best in this regard, at managing this situation. The rest of us, are having to play favorites with our products and trust it ain't fun, when a customer base can see through your BS and act accordingly, by buying from a competitor.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.motor1.com/news/534648/toyota-tacoma-4runner-hilux-platform/amp/

 

If that's the case, it would be nice to see the next gen with more torque than hp. It will make the driveability much better. I will probably get one if that's the case, fingers crossed.

 

Not sure if this video has been posted, but it seems like a pretty informative video and mimics alot of what @Carmaker1 said.

https://youtu.be/Vjw-j25nuV4

 

I did my part, I bought a 2021 manual, even if it is probably too late to see it continue past the current models.

 

Haha, this very article was ghost-written by me in early 2020. I was taken out of context on some things, but a chunk of it he did it right. Looks like they've collected more insight, but repeating what I said.

I do wish Automotive Press relied on his own Japanese connections, if he has any, as I am very limited in what I can find out and I am a little frustrated with him, for claiming there's an all-new 4Runner next year for 2023. 2024 1/2 has now been confirmed by various Toyota people, on the low. (Although, two of them strongly disagree with each other on the production location for some weird reason and I'm caught in the middle of it.)

Only if Toyota feels that the investment in the RC62F transmission needs longer usage and adapts it (beefing up) to MY 2024 Tacoma in some form, it might not die. But yeah, that torque rating makes it a challenge to keep. They need to fix that or develop an all-new manual transmission again.

 

@Carmaker1,
I have a question about manual transmissions. Now my numbers maybe completely off but I will try. Now my info is from reading on the internet but many say basically the same thing.
Older Supras (sorry I don’t remember the years) that used a 5 speed manual, used from what I understand was / is the R154. And from what I understand the R155 & R156 along with the “F” model are all the same transmission it’s just that 1st and 2nd gears are different i.e. lower to get a heavier load moving in the Tacoma. I read that Supra owners are running up to a 1000 HP through this transmission. I read the only modification is that they need is to vent the transmission better for anything over 400 to 450 HP or the output shaft starts to leak from the heat the excessive horsepower makes. I don’t know how much horsepower or torque this transmission is rated for but… And then I read the 6 speed transmission in the Tacoma has major issues with owners who try to run this transmission hard. The X-runner Underground site is full of owners complaining about the 6 speed manual.
Reason why is we own two older 5 lug Tacoma’s and my bucket list is to have someone with more skills then myself. To install an GM LS 5.3 L33 into one of the Tacoma’s with a Tremec 5 speed. The owner of the shop that I want to use to install the LS & 5 speed has the same power plant in an S-10. Pulling a load on the open road he’s getting around 28 mpg @ 70 to 75 mph with a GM automatic. Tremec 6 speeds are double over drives and geared way tall. I read that if an X-runner owner installs a Tremec 6 speed they need to change the stock 3.13 rear gear to a 4.10 gear to keep the gearing in the same ballpark.
Now why is the Toyota 5 speed so strong and the 6 speed has so many issues? Sorry this is just information I’m reading. And I also apologize as I’m not trying to change the subject just like to know more about manual transmissions. Us that prefer a manual are dying but a sweet shifting transmission knob in your hand is just so much more enjoyable to drive. Sorry I still enjoy driving I’m not into riding in my vehicles…

Hayrider

 

Now as for the 2024 Tacoma, Toyota for the first time has officially discussed this vehicle via's CALTY's design chief, Kevin Hunter (designed 1995 Tacoma in early 90s). Like I reported earlier from my own personal insight, the design is past final according to Centre design chief Kevin Hunter and now it's a matter of waiting to see test mules, prototype builds running about and the final reveal in 2023. It's coming, as I said it was and definitely not 2025.

No problems, this isn't even my thread anyway LOL. Belongs to TW and the OP. I am gonna give you a proper response later today, I am going to bed now (an hour past midnight, sleepless week). I agree a hell of lot with the above though.

 

Looks like the 4th gen tacoma and the next gen ford ranger will be out a few months apart.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.motor1.com/news/535210/new-ford-ranger-debuts-2023/amp/

 

Decent video of the 24 Tacoma predictions.
Selecting the mid-range NX350 brings a new 275-hp turbocharged 2.4-liter four-cylinder, and going with the top-spec NX450h+ offers a plug-in hybrid powertrain borrowed from the RAV4 Prime with up to 36 miles of electric-only driving range. We will know more about the 2022 NX's pricing, standard features, and options closer to the SUV's on-sale date and will update this story with details when we have them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjw-j25nuV4

 

(Sorry about the late response)

Once upon a time I loved that X-Runner, so I am not surprised at what owners have attempting with its RA60F. Sometimes it's just fun to keep "modding", until you overdo it (YOLO).

Anyway, one of the most important aspects of any transmission, is the torque rating to my knowledge. Not so much the horsepower. Not being the most familiar with detailed specs on other Toyota manual transmissions, out of RA60F and RC62F, despite owning 3, I don't know enough of the torque rating for R154/155/156F to reliably comment on that. I feel like I heard somewhere that the R154/55 is rated higher 400+ lb-ft, but somehow that sounds ridiculous when V160/161 is 361 lb-ft. Toyota had some cost-cutting post-90s, so maybe it was engineered more cheaply? Again, I can't reliably comment on that unfortunately.

Even though Motor1's author failed to get the context right, that forum's insider is...me being I presented an internal document highlighting our future timelines. It was delayed into 2023 and will arrive 3-5 months before the 2024 Tacoma. However, you'll have a very good idea very soon what it will be via the 2022 Australian version debuting. The differences are not that great, other the U.S. having separate bumpers and some DOT items.

I have seen both multiple times unclothed.

David is talented alright, but his insight proves to be clickbait and likely borrows from here. The only 4th generation discussions have been here in most cases and 2024 info mostly originated here in fact, when a few of us got the ball rolling. Everyone else called BS on the possibility we'd have a new truck before 2026, we were right because we knew better.

A lot of what I see being mentioned by him, doesn't fill in the gaps. It just regurgitates info. Nonetheless, I would rather have someone like him leading the way and providing credible renderings, as he will only get stronger as more information becomes available, rather than TFL who do not take the same intelligent approach as Automotive Press does to these things. I just hope Automotive Press stops regurgitating rumors and works on becoming a better source on deeper insight not yet surfaced.

It is good he is fostering discussion on this, even if some of it feels awfully contradictory and repetitive. Everyone else outside of him (expect for one Lexus guy), needs to either do actual research on the 920B Program or lay off of media commentary on the subject, instead of fishing for clicks and confusing people. Personally, I am signing out for good as Carmaker1, being I am now hearing from the wrong people on things Toyota and don't want any trouble coming my way. Plus, I need a good year or 2 of offline personal time, after many years of endless discussion across the web. Anyone who has replied to me, I will try to give a response, but outside of that I am signing off.