Driving with manual transmission questions

Do you follow Uncle Tony's Garage channel on the u tubes?

He's as crusty and opinionated as they come, but he's also into Mopars in a big way.

He is building a drag car called the "Plan Z dart" with a slant 6.

It's mostly all junk, but that's the point.. build something "fast" and fun on the cheap.

 

I do not know if it has been mentioned as I have not read through the whole thread but I highly suggest draining the transmission fluid and filling with Redline MT-90. I have used this in my 2016 6MT and now 2020 6MT and it makes the shifts much smoother. Especially whilst downshifting from 2nd to 1st as a straight cut gear. I came from manual Subaru's to a Tacoma so was a bit of a learning curve.

 

No, I think those were the mid 60s Darts. By the 70s they were column shifts.

 

Happy to hear how many young folks there are still liking MT. I do think it makes for better drivers.

So I'm looking at the in-gear vs neutral arguments and
- I am totally on board that you should be in gear when 1) running AC, 2) cold engine 3) going downhill.

- what I don't see is how I'd be using less gas when on a fairly even long stretch of road with my neutral RPM being half of what it would be in 6th gear. AC / lights etc are off. This is unless I need to use my breaks of course!

Using the engine for breaking is our sad little way of copying the EV way of putting deceleration energy back into the system... and absolutely required for going downhill off road. I'm aware of that.

MPG display is no help, because it tops out at 30 MPG and there never is a difference between in gear and neutral.

I am ready to listen to any technical arguments as long as they keep the above exclusions in mind. The stuff I have found on youtube is too wishy-washy and click-baity for me to pay any attention to. Link to any convincing ones?

 

Modern vehicles AT and Manual have something that is called DFCO, Deceleration Fuel Cut Off. In layman's terms when you are coasting in gear it cuts fuel to the engine.

 

I know that. It still engine brakes, the friction that goes into the gears will not magically go away. I do not want to brake, I want to roll.

 

You're probably right to a point, that if you roll further while in neutral, you'll likely use less fuel over the distance. That said, if I'm approaching a stop light, stop sign, etc. I wouldn't coast any further in neutral.

So same distance, neutral vs in gear, you use less fuel in gear so long is you don't engine brake yourself beyond the fuel cutoff point.

I suppose on a hill you could use less fuel because of the lack of engine braking but two problems:

1) Speed limits. At some point, if you're getting more speed and distance in neutral, you're going to have to brake.

2) The really light engine makes for nearly non existent engine braking to a certain extent. I've rarely been on a hill that didn't speed me up in 6th but did in neutral.

So I guess the "too long didn't read" version of this would be: if you're coasting the SAME distance in neutral or in gear, in gear will typically use less fuel. If you're able to coast further while in neutral, technically that MAY use less fuel.

Edit:

This guy always decently explains this stuff. The answer according to him is "it depends" similar to how I explained above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bZlb62VVlw&ab_channel=EngineeringExplained

 

Excellent. Thanks for that video - much better stated than I ever could have. I guess in the end the difference in fuel consumption is pretty much negligible...
I do remember something a mechanic once told me though "New breaks pads are a hell of a lot cheaper than a new clutch" - so just be careful that you don't get into the habit of clutch-breaking (and now we're getting back to the original topic!)

 

The vast majority of hills out there require operator intervention or cruise control to maintain desired speed while descending. To put a vehicle in neutral and coast down while feathering the brakes to possibly save fuel makes no cents at all!

 

What is an ADM please?

 

Accumulator Delete Mod.

https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/mt-accumulator-delete-mod-adm-and-bs-thread.568303/

 

Further to your 2nd point WRT engine braking in the 3rd gen V6 M/T - there is a table in the engine calibration that can be used to manipulate how much engine braking you get (at full lift) at a given RPM. Of course this effect is less noticeable the higher the gear you are in. It comes at a cost though, as any time I've played with the table values and went a bit too far, driveability starts to suffer. You can get this on/off throttle jerky weirdness that ends up being more annoying than the lack of engine braking lol!

Edit: Here it is. Far left column. The more negative the values, the more engine braking:

 

congrats on the MT! fellow MT owner here. i had driven manuals but this is my first time owning one myself too! best advice i can give you is take your hand off the gear level as soon as you slot it into gear, put it on the wheel, that way you focus entirely on your feet movement when engaging the clutch. also dont give into moment of wanting to feel like a race car driver, it will cost you. like Shaun says "for every good shift you do, you'll get another one"

 

I like your advice re: not keeping your hand on the shift knob when not actively using it. I know entirely too many people — even AT drivers — who keep their hand there nonstop and don’t understand why that’s a potential problem (and also just entirely unnecessary).

 

Hey man, Im new here and there's lot of suggestions. The best of which I see is to link up with someone who's got experience driving manual. If you're in seattle area let me know. I just got a automatic 2017 instead of a 2021 manual that I test drove. The clutch felt a little disengaged, hard to feel out, but with sound and timing I thought it shifted pretty well. This 2017 is the first automatic I've owned like....ever lol, so if we happen to be in the same area, I'd be happy to show you some stuff in both your truck, as well as my subi. Learning different vehicles actually helps in perfecting yours. One thing I will say that people love to do in subi world, and I'm seeing the suggestion here, is the delete mod for "better" clutch feel and clutch engagement. The dampener is there for a reason. That reason is electronic throttle bodies. They are responsible for what's called rev hang in modern cars that long story short, aim to ensure proper fuel burn when shifting due to the lack of direct throttle linkage. The clutch dampening also functions as sequencing for the smoother application of throttle as fuel burn is ensured to avoid long term fouling of your engine and efficiency. So I'll be the contrarian and say leave that alone, and just learn to deal with the lackluster feel of the particular clutch in these trucks. It'll be better for your engine, and develop your skill better across multiple vehicles man. Promise. The delete is the easy way out of finesse haha. I've taught several people to drive stick with only one catastrophic failure which has the subi down. The gripped the shifter like....well... fill in the blank, and caught the reverse latch when shifting into 6th....and inside opened the gate and slammed into reverse. I initially heard the grind, which is otherwis eno big deal, and reminded them to press clutch and they forced it in again, so kind of my fault not realizing how far to the right they came. Not a factor of course for the tacos as reverse is on the left but enayway, there's my input, I'm babbling. Best of luck.

 

you have one-sided experience with this. not that you're interested to hear repetition of the value for doing the ADM, but I'll be the first to disagree. i understand your angle. but there's nothing that can convince me it's right for an experienced driver after living with both sides. and if that means you need to do additional maintenance or deal with rev hang, etc, then that is fine with me as long as the clutch is directly modulatable through feel as i think it should be. I'll deal with all kinds of quirks and costs of doing the business, but shit driving will never be one of them.

 

Well I'll add to that, and say if someone can't figure out a smooth shift because their clutch doesn't "feel perfect", then manual transmissions are probably not for them. Don't blame the machine for "shit driving". When you've gotten to a point where you don't need to depress a clutch fully because you simply know at what point it disengages and reengages, the shift is so quick the feel is completely irrelevant. And even more experience will have you shifting on the road clutchless with no penalty, and hardly any additional strain on your syncros. As for "additional maintenance", you can't maintenance your way out of increased imposed wear and tear on a machine.

 

Can't get a feel for a clutch that has no feedback and a floating engaugement point. ADM is a must with these.

 

Sure, but the very first time I ever drive a manual shift Toyota anything was last saturday on a test drive. After one subtle jerk.... it shifted and engaged just fine. Operator error homie lol.

 

At least your willing to learn