Towing messed up my truck? (manual)

Anyone else go through this?
(sample pic, not mine)



Towed a lot of weight a far distance (manual). Clutch pedal engagement point got lower, 1st gear now tries to lock you out of it, and now you can feel some resistance in other gear syncrhos whereas before this it used to be effortless butter smooth.

I think the friction disc wore a bit so now I need to adjust the clutch pedal engagement (12mm, 14mm, threaded rod w/ nut under pedal?)

And a possible change of fluid, because if the manual trans (RA60F) only takes around 2qt, then I'm sure it took a beating in traffic and overheated. It's got shitty Mobil 1 syn 75w90 in there anyway.
Shifting (no pedals) with engine off, it's smoother. This tells me the cause lies within the clutch assembly.
Currently running CM HydroTOB, OE disc, OE PP, factory FW (re-used).

CM states set pedal to 75% engagement. Towing took it from 75% to 50%. I got it to 60% in a parking lot yesterday. Gonna give it another quarter turn today.

TL;DR anyone else have their manual trans start acting weird after towing?

 

AFAIK your clutch should be self adjusting. You might have a look and make sure clutch fluid is full and the master/slave cylinders are operating correctly. Failing that, it might be time for a new clutch.

No reason to be concerned about the oil in the transmission, MT's don't overheat like ATs, they're literally just a box full of gears.

 

Installed a new clutch disc last year.
Even the old one had plenty of mm thickness left, And flywheel basically looked new. Despite 130k miles.

Clutch res is still full indicating no leak. But I didn't look close at other components such as master cyl.
At least for the hydroTOB (replaces slave cyl) I would have to remove splash guards, inspection cover, and watch it with eye on a lift while buddy operates pedal.

I mean the gears spinning cause some heat. I just don't know if it's a lot. The MT probably has cooling fins for air to pass through, but those don't work if slow in traffic.
Some passenger cars even have the option of a manual trans cooler + oil lines but I don't know if that exists for the Taco.

RE: self adjustment, you know how if you push the fingers on a pressure plate, it releases the friction surface?
Because the friction surface may have pushed inward (natural tension) from a thinner clutch disc, that would extend the pressure plate fingers farther outward then they used to be. Which means it might now take more pedal travel to release it.
So I probably have to adjust the pedal bite higher, for more leverage to fully release it.
At least that is one idea. And cheaper to do. Hopefully that's all it is!

Because if the pedal is set to engage 1/4 way off the floor like many other Japanese cars, I don't think it would have enough travel to fully release the pressure plate to shift gears. As opposed to set higher up like a German car. Will take some getting used to regarding feet.
I don't think there's any other ways to change adjustments or easily. CM says their HydroTOB is pre-set. AFAIK they either work or don't work (some people have had them leak on the ground)

FWIW I regret not getting a stage 2 clutch kit because the pressure plate would grip better and make the pedal feel just a little firmer in a good way

 

Not familiar at all with the HydroTOB, is that one of the ones that goes over the input shaft on the transmission? I've seen them on chevys, but I've never been under a second gen taco.

There is definitely some heat generated, and they do get warm, but nothing like an auto.

Has the fluid level changed at all in the clutch reservoir? That might be a clue.

 

I think you worn the clutch disc out...

 

I’d always believed manual trans were bullet proof with fluid changes or even without them for the most part.
Short of breaking a shaft or chewing up gears.
Was the flywheel resurfaced?
Did you change the tob?
A older guy said if your rolling at speed in high gear push in the clutch and let it out quick.
If it bangs in quick it’s good if it slides back in it’s worn.

 

I had a similar problem last year but not quite as drastic. You can adjust the actuator rod on the back of the clutch pedal. In your case, if everything is 'functioning' as it should, this adjustment might take care of it for a while. I had to do this.
You'll have to lengthen the rod, but it doesn't take much. There's a jamb nut on the rod and it's kind of a booger to get to, but it made the difference I needed and it's been fine ever since.
Give this a shot and let us know how it works out.

 

Depends on the transmission. The manuals used in Tacoma's are closer to a sports car transmission than a truck transmission. On top of that they are mated to a car engine, not a truck engine. You don't buy a manual to tow with. If you drive your Tacoma like a sports car fine. You can't even get a 3/4 or 1 ton truck anymore with a manual because the automatics hold up better for towing and heavy hauling.

They haven't used manuals in buses for over 40 years and most commercial trucks of that size have also moved away from manuals.

 

Don't touch the pushrod adjustment just yet. Instead, crawl under the truck and watch the slave cylinder movement while a helper pushes the clutch pedal. Does it throw the release arm far enough?

If no, look at the hydraulics

If yes, look at the clutch unit.

If the clutch disc got suddenly thinner the engagement point would be higher up towards the dash, not down by the floor.

 

Towing anything heavy with a manual in this truck is a no no, they just aren't equipped for long term use like that. As for the problems here, it sounds like the stage clutch you had just wasn't up to the torque applied due to towing. There's no adjustment on the CM unless you add a spacer or something, but they are supposed to come preset for the life of the clutch disc assuming you use a stockish clutch that's designed to replace an OEM one. The only adjustment is the pedal travel but if you have a clutch who's fingers are extended outward and in constant contact with the TOB that will quickly wear out the clutch as you are constantly releasing pressure a small amount. Best bet is to get a full size truck to tow something that big, and to open the inspection port, put the trans in neutral with the clutch released with engine running and see the gap between the bearing and fingers.

 

I think so too. It's possible.
I'll check if it's visible through the inspection port cover, or if I have to pull the trans to look at it.
Might be time to put in a stage 2 clutch disc and pressure plate.
Current parts are Exedy (stage 1?) from RockAuto. They might have a warranty.

No idea about the flywheel though. It looked good during the last clutch job so I re-used it and lightly scuffed with scotch-brite + brakleen
didn't want to spend $800 on a new Aisin one (OEM), having a shop machine it flat seemed unrealistic, and the LuK flywheel RockAuto says fits for like $80 supposedly has weird teeth that sometimes don't mesh with the starter.
I can only imagine what towing did to it, if it developed any warping or hot spots.

It doesn't help that I fucked up in two ways.
1. Rush hour highway traffic, kept getting cut off and hitting the brakes. = 1st gear shift, more clutch starting = heat, wear
2. turned down a one way and backed out in 2hi with feathered clutch starts (hard to see pathway at night) with cars coming behind that couldn't just wait a minute

You are right
whether it's an old manual Dodge Ram diesel or a semi truck, they have many things going for them that a Tacoma does not:
-more torque from diesel engine
-probably a larger clutch size

Interesting. I wonder how it got lower. I'll take a look

You're right. With how an automatic works, fluid, clutches, torque converter, lockup, etc. it is better for that
the only shortfall is monitoring ATF temp and cooling
and those are easy fixes in the form of temp gauge and aux cooler.

I know b_r_o said not to, but this is what I've been trying.
Did not see the post/reply yet at the time. Stopped and bought 2 wrenches (12, 14) for the actuator rod.
Basically I'll open up the jam nut, then turn the rod by hand like it's unscrewing from the jam nut, making the bite point higher. It's real trick so I've slowed down to maybe half turn at a time, then drive to check. With my foot coming straight off the pedal trying to feel what percentage the bite is at.
Seems to be at about 50-60%.
I believe CM says optimal is 75% so I may have some more loosening/adjusting to do on it, to see if that fixes it.
So far, any time I raise the bite just a little bit (adjustment) it does seem to help the shifting feel, a little bit, but not fully fixed.
Maybe it's just getting to that 75% that will do the trick.
At least to start since it's the cheapest, fastest, easiest thing

I guess I'll know for sure if I ever feel like pulling out the trans for fun (whole job probably takes 1 day start to finish)
to see if anything looks messed up like glaze or burn marks, etc. vs none
Funny thing is when I did the clutch at 130k it all looked decent almost as if previous owner had it done prior (truck had no records to suggest this)
Always assumed clutch time = 100k miles, but have seen cars go 200-300k if driven well
Hopefully there's not a ton of clutch dust in the bellhousing...

Interesting thing is any time I've seen clutch problems on a car, is simply slippage. Like RPM rising and speed not, under WOT
then again they didn't tow...
the crap feel even started during the tow, as opposed to after
maybe it just couldn't handle it

flywheel looked new, used light scotchbrite on it and eyeballed flatness with a straightedge. It still had original machining grooves.
upon install (many thousands of miles ago) did the whole grandma city driving break in procedure.
TOB was replaced/"upgraded" with CM HydroTOB unit

I've heard that trick before once. Makes sense. I'll give it a try.
It doesn't seem to have the same strong bite as before. So I already imagine it's not gonna have the bang...Only one way to find out.
Doing the bang might even freshen/regenerate the surface a bit. Hopefully.
But if this test determines fault to lie within the clutch disc only, that would honestly be great news. Because a $60 clutch disc is way cheaper to replace than gears, synchros, etc...
Towing did a number on the brakes too lol.
Was really hoping the pressure plate won't be warped, overheated, bent fingers, etc. - and maybe it isn't; much of that stuff can only be seen when taking it apart too
But at the end of the day if the clutch disc is now worn thinner that will probably interfere with pressure plate function

 

Were you over published towing capacity ?

What is " CM " ?

I had an F 250 with a manual trans, it had a trans oil cooler. They do get hot. Feel your rear differential after an hour of normal driving sometime.

 

OP, a couple of things popped into my head about this.

You did not indicate the year of your truck. Just an FWIW, the later 6-speeds on the 2nd Gen have better components in the transmission than the early. To the extent that many parts will not interchange.

The 6-speed does get hotter than all blazes. It sits between cats on both sides, has virtually nothing for cooling fins, and holds a paltry 1.9 qts of gear oil. Also, using a GL-5 gear oil may not be the best. The dual GL-4/GL-5 designation was later dropped from the owners manual.

Somewhere in the forum are a few posts addressing roughly similar problems to what that you are experiencing being traced back to bolts on the pressure plate backing out either unevenly or together, and reducing the clamping force. If I remember correctly it had to do with the mounting step and improper bolting/torquing the pressure plate bolts. If I can find I will post.

 

As an observation. The boat and trailer appear to be fairly large. What is the combined weight?

Pulling that up a boat ramp can be very damaging to a clutch. Especially, if the driver is slipping the clutch to ease the boat/trailer up the ramp without slipping tires.

 

I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but the clutchmasters hydro bearing has had a history of a failing/leaking seal. May be that. There's a thread on here somewhere with more than a few unhappy customers.

 

Sorry. CM = ClutchMasters.
Basically the 2nd gen Taco was plagued with a clutch throwout bearing problem. People with the RA60F 6speed manual unfortunately are probably familiar with this. It makes a crazy squeaking noise.
Companies have come about with their various solutions. I don't know in what order. But after them maybe a year ago, CM/ClutchMasters released their own solution, a hydraulic TOB/throwout bearing. Normally used in performance cars, but made here to resolve the squeak. Just a different design of bearing is all. I don't know how they can fail.
Unfortunately despite high hopes from many for the product to succeed, some people in the main thread for it on here report theirs fail/leak under the truck.
Maybe I am one of the lucky ones in that it has never leaked. And up until this point of towing, it seems to have worked flawlessly. I am trying to figure out which components may be faulty now, and am guessing the CM HydroTOB either works or doesn't, aka holds seal integrity fluid pressure or leaks. Which it does not appear to be leaking.

Yeah I bet the rear diff gets hot. On top of that, the manual trans has a low fluid capacity spec.
I've felt manual trans on a car before after normal driving and it was hot as hell.
I can only imagine a truck when towing.
01E 6spd trans (quattro) in say an Audi B5 S4 (2001) had the option in Germany for auxiliary trans cooler. There are ports on that manual trans that can connect pipes to a front cooler. It is probably standard on more performance models, whether they use that trans in an official race car (I bet they did) or higher spec models such as B5 RS4 avant and RS2 avant (Europe)
so it's definitely possible to cool gear oil in a manual trans.

Well, it was a 6x12 U-Haul. That trailer alone is heavy as shit. Probably 1-2k lbs or more.
Then filled all the way with stuff. Probably at least 1k lbs cargo.
The thing is, you'd think that's fine. Why?
If I type in "Tacomaworld 6x12 2nd gen" on Google, image results are chock full of pics of people doing exactly that in their 2nd gens. However, most may be automatic trans.
On top of that, I've heard of people towing cars in the Taco.
Like when Rich Rebuilds (youtube channel tesla mod guy) bought a Silverado duramax diesel, he used a friend's 2nd gen Taco to tow the thing.
That's right, towing a car trailer, with a Chevy on it. Using a Tacoma.
But, probably automatic.
So I really hoped this thing would handle it just fine, given I've heard a ton of times the max tow ability of a 2nd gen is anywhere from 5-10k lbs (15k is probably pushing it)
It really stuck with the semi truck crowd.
Engine braking down hill in manual gear was nice, but on a steep uphill it basically had to do what the big rigs did.
Downshifting into 5th, 4th, 3rd, or even 2nd a few times, revving up hill in the right slow lane with flashers on.
The truck went through one hell of a workout

the time I towed before was a 5x8 and that was easier. I've seen people tow 6x12 in 5th gen 4runner, but again, automatic.
I did feel pretty stupid seeing a diesel Ford Excursion towing a 5x8. You could hear the sound of the diesel and turbo whistle. Meanwhile I'm waterboarding my small Tacoma with a 6x12...

I may start with the easy stuff first. Such as:
-adjust pedal rod to 75% bite point
-watch behavior through inspection port
-drain and inspect fluid, replace with good quality new fluid

I think the hitch itself (OEM) is rated to 5k lbs or more, and it held up fine,
so maybe it was under 5k but I'm not sure. Didn't drive over a weigh station or anything. Am not sure if that's even possible or what it costs to do.

yes you are exactly right
I just figured mine may still be good given there is no leak under the truck (thank God) and stable fluid level in reservoir.
At the time it seemed like it could be a newer/better upgrade than the alternatives (URD?) with their metal sleeves and oversized mechanical bearings.
If anything I'd want to copy the guy here who made an even better thread on how to make a Tilton hydroTOB fit

Maybe the CM HydroTOB is designed to work with OEM clutch thickness,
which if I wore mine it would no longer be as thick

Hopefully CM sells the seal separately for anyone who has a leak.
I remember when getting mine in the mail before install, I played with it out of curiosity to see how it works and goes together, taking it apart and re-assembling it by hand. I don't remember if I applied any special grease to the seal, or just installed how it came. But it has never leaked.

It was a full 6x12 U-Haul
but yes that is kind of what I did. Odd thing is it started exhibiting first gear lockout way before I goofed and got myself "stuck in a neighborhood"
It was not until the very end of the trip that I was looking for parking and this spot had no one-way sign. I should've got out to verify on foot.
Ended up backing up 100-200ft uphill, feathering/slipping clutch in reverse 2hi, speed bumps, etc.
which on an unloaded truck I'm sure is fine, but with thousands of pounds extra I'm sure really stressed the clutch

I'm guessing at least 3k lbs. At least 1k lbs worth of stuff probably, and U-haul website stating their 6x12" empty weights 1920lbs.
Enough to sag the rear suspension

Yep. Trans bolted to the back of an engine combusting fuel, transfers heat into it. As do those hot cats sitting there acting as heat sinks.
Especially if low speed in traffic without airflow cooling, and unlike a sports car, I doubt the splash shields underneath have NACA ducts to direct air.

I agree. The trans fluid capacity is pathetically low. Mine feels a bit too thin as well so it's probably time to change it.
I'll see if I can find info on the Pressure Plate thing you mentioned. When I replaced the clutch I torqued everything to repair manual specs. red or blue loctite where needed, brand new bolts if needed, cleaned out the thread holes, marked with paint pen, star pattern, double check again, all that

I'm sure the trans fluid took a beating and should be replaced. That's how it is with race cars. If they're driven too hard and their trans fluid overheats, it must be replaced. This was just a different type of "hard" (towing) vs. a track car taking corners at high speed.

You're right I don't remember this trans having much of cooling fins. Regular cars usually have a shit ton of them running front to back along the underside kind of like ribs protruding out
It's an '08 pre-facelift so I'm guessing the previous "worse" RA60F

 

Meh. I pulled a full 6x12 uhaul in my 6mt Nissan with the cab stuffed to the roof and a motorcycle in the bed. 1000 miles, No issues.

I think you’re more likely to have a slave cylinder problem, especially with the moving engagement point - a misbehaving clutch will absolutely mess with your synchronization and how hard it is to get into gear if it isn’t disengaging properly.

 

Pulling up a boat launch if it is WET I feel would provide enough slippage to use 4 LO in a Tacoma. When I had a truck with manual trans. and manual front hubs I always used low range with the front hubs UNLOCKED. I miss manual hubs. The only reason I purchased a Tacoma is the available manual trans. and I'm old enough not to need a big truck, I think...

 

Exactly.
I'll try to call CM to see if they're nice enough to share their thoughts
I'm hoping the HydroTOB is fine because I don't see how it could fail
I mean it's metal or ceramic parts, maybe they survived the heat. And the big thick rubber seal that holds the fluid may have survived too. I don't see a leak. Reservoir level is good. Maybe I should keep an eye on it to see if it drops which could indicate a slight leak spraying outward onto the clutch assembly being burned, resulting in a slippy feel from lubrication
Or the slippy feel could even be just from a burned disc...
Was thinking if anything it would lie with other components such as flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch disc

My use was for sure lighter than. Had no bike in the bed, just boxes.
AFAIK sportbike = approx 450-550lbs, 1800cc cruiser = ~800lbs

I for sure regret/should have used 4LO backing up that hill...
It would change the gear ratio enough for me to idle back in reverse with the clutch pedal released to avoid slipping it

 

The 2.7 and 4.0 are most definitely not sports car engines. The 3.5 was modified from a van engine. These long throw transmissions are not sports car transmissions either. The newer transmission in the 3rd gen 2.7s did have improvements to the synchros. Until very recently (2018), Dodge did have manual transmissions on their 3/4 tons and 1 tons, as the trucks had the torque needed. They held up just fine. Automatics are easier to tune and have the advantage of acting as a torque multiplier.