Alignment after 5100 install - veer to the right

I’m a Auto mechanic , that alignment is gonna pull to right. Will pull to the most positive camber and the most negative caster and you are gonna be fighting road crown . If those numbers were switched from left to right it would be good .

 

Yeah I’m going to disagree. I align trucks several time a week at work. I regularly see truck with pulls right caused solely by incorrect cross caster. You do not want cross caster with the right side being the lower measurement. It will induce a pull right.

But hey, if you guys want to speculate on possible other causes for a pull that only was present after an alignment change, with a printout showing an alignment with poor cross caster, go for it. Seems like a waste of everyone’s time to me.

 

This thread gets worse and worse. Seriously Camber will NEVER cause a pull. EVER. I wonder sometimes why people insist on giving bad advice. And negative caster???? What in the world are you talking about? Please remove your post because it is really, really bad.

 

If you have more positive camber on one side then the other it will pull towards the higher number . With caster it’s the other way around. I don’t know what your smoking. But camber will cause a pull lol . Anyways most of the issue going by his specs is caster . It should be 1.8 caster both sides and slightly more camber on left them right to compensate for some road crown.

 

Camber pulls to the side more positive. Caster pulls to the side more negative. Camber is more of a tire wearing angle then caster which is why it is used to compensate for road crown.

 

Stop trying to be a know it all.

The OP is saying its going right, the alignment confirms it.

1 degree of cross caster isn't a pull, its a drastic problem when its under 2 degrees. Undriveable.

0.4 doesnt look like a lot, but with these trucks the closer to zero, the closer it is to being a shopping cart.

I don't let anyone leave with less than 1.6 degrees of caster. Even on cranked spacer lifts.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck. You start with alignment.

 

I'm sorry, buy you clearly know nothing about alignments. Please take a few minutes to learn. Actually I suggest you grab one of your hot wheels out of your toy box. Tilt it on to two wheel and push it on a flat surface. What happens? Is it trying to turn circles or is it still going straight as it did when it was flat? It goes straight. You see, you put 45 degrees of camber and it makes no difference. Same thing happens on your car.

You are also wrong about camber being a wearing angle. It is not*. Toe causes wear. I put the asterisk on camber because it can cause excessive edge wear, but that is only over time. Camber wear is pretty wear and outside of a few ultra high performance cars, you are not going to see camber wear from being a .1 of a degree or so off.

It isn't a question of opinion here. This isn't like we are talking about Magnetic Grey being better than Salsa Red (which it is). It is simple math and math doesn't lie.

Again, you are confusing a pull with a drift. Two totally different issues. I explained the difference. I can probably think of another analogy if it helps. The .4 degree difference doesn't create the shopping cart effect. It is the closer to zero of caster. I think you kind of understand it, but you are still confusing the two. I am sorry if you are offended by my knowledge. I am not trying to be a know it all. Ask me about clutch plates in an auto transmission or shutter speed on a SLR and I couldn't tell you anything meaningful. I do happen to know a lot about steering and suspension.

 

Man, I need to go to your shop. Firestone returned my truck twice with a printout that measured 0.1 and 0.08 caster. And while it does like to wander a little at high speeds, it isnt a death wobble, just an occasional keep-it-in-the-lane correction once or twice during a commute. Anything below 60mph feels great. (regardless, I already have an appointment at a different Firestone with a very explicit "fix it or refund, please." )

So, sorry for thread jacking, but I'm curious. Is it possible for a tech to piffle the measurement and get an erroneous read on what the caster actually is, or is the wheel sensor machine foolproof?

 

As others have said, increase the caster on the right side and it will stop pulling to the right. If you have a divided highway where the passing line is sloped down to the left, see if it tracks straight in that lane. Compare that to a road that is flat or a lane that slopes to right and compare how it pulls.

Truck will pull to the side with lower caster unless there is slope in the lane to counteract it.
Also, higher caster will make the steering feel heavier if you like that weight. Low caster feels lighter but there is a tipping point where too low will make it feel unstable. On 2nd gens, most people felt like it needed at least 2 deg caster to feel good. I always preferred at least 3 deg caster.

Wouldn't worry about camber much yet. At some point, too much camber will lead to faster tire wear on the edge but up to 0.5 should be ok most of the time. If you tend to hit corners hard, you may increased wear on edges of you tires. Camber as close to 0 as they can get while still hitting a reasonable caster is what you want. Caster and camber are linked so adjusting one changes the other and some techs don't like to spend enough time getting it right.
https://www.underhoodservice.com/using-caster-to-properly-align-vehicles/

 

I think the one here that needs a reeducation on alignments is you. Excessive camber split will cause a pull, and as said above, to the more positive side. Camber is also very much a tire wearing angle. No you won’t see it present itself with a couple tenths of a degree, but get up to a degree or more and you will start seeing edge wear. Incorrect toe angles, again ones that are excessive, have the most effect on tire wear, but it is a different type of wear. Excessive caster split will cause a pull to the side with less caster. Manufactures use this when needed to compensate for crowned road surfaces. There are many vehicles out there on the road that from the factory have a split in their front caster measurements to help the vehicle track more strait on crowned surfaces. The split is usually only a few tenths of a degree or so but it is enough to help without causing a noticeable pull left. You put an incorrect split going the other way and then drive on a crowned road, which is about 95% of them where I live, you have a perfect recipe for a consistent pull right. I’m not sure where you learned what you have on alignment angles but it is clearly incorrect as far as how the vehicle behaves as a result of these angles.

 

Camber can and does cause a pull. Camber is also a tire wearing angle. Not as bad as toe but it does cause wear. Did I say anything about that being the case on this truck? I did not. Why I didn't is because his cross camber is fine. Even has a little positive, EVEN camber on both sides, which our trucks favor. You said camber NEVER causes tire wear which is wrong. See post #23. And I said more negative caster not negative caster.

You can have perfect toe with excessive positive or negative camber and you will wear tires. Put 3 degrees negative camber and watch how fast the inner part of you tire wears and how hard it pulls to the opposite (more positive) side assuming the cross caster difference is 3 degrees. Yes .1 degree won't cause a pull or wear. Never said it would. Also closer to zero caster is shopping cart angle, yes, we are saying the same thing just a different way is all. Semantics.

Pull, drift, call it whatever you want. Again, semantics is all it is. The cross caster difference coupled with road crown maybe causing the drift/pull whatever you want to call it. In all my training I never heard the term "drift" unless your just talking about a slight pull.

And just so you know I'm not some internet head/ know it all. I only comment on forums about things I know about. I used to work for Hunter and John Bean (Snap On) as an equipment tech and I have extensive training on all things under car. as well as all other garage equipment. About 15 years total. I had know alignment inside and out because the first thing a tech wanted to do when he did a bad alignment was blame the machine. The owner would call me and the first thing I would do was get the tech to show me his process. 90% of the time it was operator error. And with the camera systems they have now they are even more idiot proof. So i left with my $500 service call charge but the tech got trained up and he usually had at least a couple ah ha moments. It's not rocket science and I'm too old to get into dick measuring contests. I'm only trying to help.

 

^^THIS. Beat me to it but obviously well trained.

 

Here @Komurphy I thought I would share my specs, I did an Eibach Pro-Truck Stage 2 lift with 1" blocks in the rear with 265/70R17's. So similar to yours... I do have Trail Tamer UCA's as well...



2 things I notice different between yours and mine is that my Caster is a full degree higher than yours, this will increase the on centre feel, or the return to centre. There is a .4 degree split going to the left on mine, where yours is going to the right. I drove a 40 km round trip last night (the things we do for our children) and I carefully watched my steering. I drove on several off camber roads going different directions, I never experienced any pull, left or right, regardless of the camber of the road. Does the Caster split make a difference, maybe, but I should have seen that last night and did not... The higher Caster numbers help maintain a straight wheel I know that much.

I will also note, my alignment was messed up for a week before I got my to the shop. I never experienced any pull.

I would suggest you try the wheel swap, it is easy and quick, if that fails then return to the alignment shop. Talk to them and see if they have some insight into the issue. This thread might not help you much...

 

Or take it back to the alignment shop and have them correct the caster split the truck has… This thread has plenty of useful info, you jus refuse to accept that you might not be correct on this.

 

Caster is the easiest to misread but depending on the machine they are using.



These still make errors but self correct if installed correctly. I can bang out alignments perfectly all day with these.

Caster differential is easy to detect, I use my fingers between the tire and fender to see if my readings are out of whack or if they are reading a bent arm etc

I’m not gonna debate anymore. Might get banned again for having an opinion

 

Oh they can definitely piffle.

The #1 thing I would see that caused incorrect caster/camber readings was binding slip plates and turnplates. Then to exacerbate the problem the overzealous tech takes them apart and loads them up with grease. Ugggggggg. Or drive on or off the turnplates without removing or setting the pins. I've seen techs slip right off the rack.

#2 might be not getting the wheel sensor/target on the rim or tire correctly or not keeping the set pin tight or loose at the right time. Some of the machines tell you when this needs to happen.

#3 The incorrect use of the brake pedal depressor and the steering wheel holder. Or no use at all. Big no no.

 

Thanks. I'm 90% sure that both techs just wanted to close the ticket without having to touch the cam bolts (alignment by tie-rod). Was just curious how hard you have to fail to get the machine to return a false caster, for purposes of not accusing them of laziness.

 

"Set the toe, Let it go"

Yeah, unfortunately, to fail doing an alignment, you usually don't try at all. The dead giveaway is the same before and after readings except for the toe readings.
However to be fair, not all alignments are created equal. The initial cost should be just to get readings and set the toe if that's all that is wrong. Our trucks are easy do do. Some vehicles need shims or new eccentrics to correct angles. But a seasoned, successful tech uses the machine as a sales tool for more parts and labor. That's the name of the game. Not just lining up one toe-and-go job after another only to have them comeback with more problems and get blamed for incompetence. Wouldn't you like to know if you have a bent spindle or tie rod ends with play in them that will ruin your brand new 35's. I'd pay the extra money for that and tell my friends what a great experience I had.

 

You may be confusing the multi quote with some of the erroneous comments from our friend to the north.

1. Camber will not cause excessive wear. Did you read my entire statement? Will it cause wear over time? Yes, but we are talking thousands of miles. This is from the weighting putting more pressure on one side or the other.

2. Pull/Drift are not the same. That is my entire point. Please take a few minutes to understand the difference. That is where you are struggling because you are lumping the two into the same category. I'm guessing that is probably why you don't see the difference between what happens with low/zero caster and a variation of side to side difference.

Here is another example that maybe it will help you. The shopping cart is a fine example. Zero caster. You put it on flat ground, it goes straight. You put it on a sloped surface, it follows the slope unless you correct the direction. Now lets take that same cart. Put a fixed axle and shift that axle a few degrees off centerline. That is what is happening when you have left/right caster variation. Now if you are on that flat surface, that cart goes the lower side of that centerline. You have to constantly correct it. That is a pull. You put it on the slope and in one direction that cart requires severe correction. You go with the slope the other way, it requires little to no correction because the slope is compensating for the caster variation.

Ideally when you do an alignment you would want caster to be equal and to the higher end of the range. That of course does come with some drawbacks because high caster puts more wear on suspension parts. Your ball joints, rack, tie rods, etc. don't like the extra weight, but you get the benefit of better steering and better tracking.

 

Please correct me then... where am I wrong?