Keep it or not?

You were correct, I was very surprised to locate almost 25 charging stations within 30 minutes drive. The overwhelming majority of Oklahoma electricity is generated from coal fired power plants, so I question if an EV automobile has an actual positive environmental impact compared to a modern ICE. Also must consider the environmental impact of EV battery disposal if they continue to have limited recycling (surely this must change in the future). Irregardless, the EV auto is undeniably gaining momentum.

 

These are symptoms often discarded when people talk about EV. We literally have to destroy the earth to strip mine the materials to produce the batteries, not to mention the amount of fuel and carbon emissions from the mining equipment and logistics. You make a good point in battery disposal, there really isn’t a good way to dispose of them and recycling isn’t really recycling.

 

Yes I agree, it is also relatively new compared to ICE vehicles. It was only 3 years ago that the U.S. Department of Energy's (DOE) first lithium-ion battery recycling research center, called the ReCell Center, was opened. EV's generate 1.2-2 times as much pollution at point of manufacturing depending on the make/model. However over their usable lifespan they generate less overall pollution than a ICE vehicle. Also surprisingly, it is more energy efficient to generate electricity from coal and then charge an EV motor than it is to simply use an ICE motor vehicle, not to mention power grids going green over time.

 

I have yet to read a comprehensive study that includes all elements and metrics to make a reasonable logical conclusion. Most studies have glaring gaps that a layman can point out. It translates to bias.

 

lol, that sounds like someone who would deny the fact the climate is changing would say. The numerous studies are very clear that EV's are more energy efficient and produce overall less pollution than an ICE counterpart. In fact, EV's are dramatically more energy efficient than ICE motors that are essentially giant inefficient heaters utilizing less than 20% of the total energy that gasoline has to offer. Next your gonna claim the earth is flat?

Please tell me the glaring bias and or left out data in the following study:
https://sciendo.com/pdf/10.2478/rtuect-2020-0041

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

 

Exactly. And problems, too; the third gen will have gens 1 & 2 beat as far as problems.

 

Yes! My sons are economics & biology majors. They should have no trouble finding jobs when they graduate from college in 1 & 2 years, respectively.

 

We all know at that electric motors are more efficient and produce less emissions than ICE, we’ve known this for 100 years which is why your argument, like so many others, isn’t new or ground breaking.

The problem has never been about power generation, the problem has and remains storing the energy, we know what is clean and renewable and what is not. You are just parroting the same old argument. I’m still waiting on a comprehensive study as I can poke holes in all of your data.

None of these studies including the mining of material and the metrics around mining.

Funny enough the Reuters Well to Wheel paper you linked (not the BS opinion articles) actually said diesel is more efficient than EV in their study and ICE vehicles were pretty much on par with EVs. “Further investigation needed” is among the most common phrases and I agree with them, there is a significant lack of data in the areas of battery storage and other variables.

However, I agree with their conclusion in that power plants are the most significant influence in efficiency and carbon emissions. EVs require recharging from renewable energy such as solar and wind and right now we don’t have that and won’t for a while.

 

"You are just parroting the same old argument. I’m still waiting on a comprehensive study as I can poke holes in all of your data." Proceeds to not poke a single hole in any data points, lmao. Also, you know we don't strip mine to get a majority of Lithium in 2022 right? Most comes from a very environmentally friendly process of salt mining were water is simply pumped underground and lithium is brought to the surface. Not to mention the required materials to be mined to produce other electronics that go into ICE vehicles as well...

Also, when you say "we" are not there yet in terms of renewable energy being the key source of power generation, I assume you are referring to the US? Countries like Ireland, Paraguay, Costa Rica, etc. are already at 100% of all energy coming from renewable sources. Diesel is more energy efficient however it causes more pollution. Also, 40% of all energy in the US is from renewables and growing every year, but I agree the US isn't there yet in terms of majority of energy coming from a renewable "green" source. Probably because we have subsidized gas for so long to keep it cheap at the pump for consumers when the true economic cost of a gallon of gas is $15/gal.

 

Where are you getting your data? According to the EIA only 20% of all energy is from renewable resources in the US (not 40% as you claim) and only 12% of power consumption.

 

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

lol what? here is the EIA link right here....

"In 2021, about 4,116 billion kilowatthours (kWh) (or about 4.12 trillion kWh) of electricity were generated at utility-scale electricity generation facilities in the United States.1 About 61% of this electricity generation was from fossil fuels—coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases. About 19% was from nuclear energy, and about 20% was from renewable energy sources."

 

Ya it says 20%

 

I guess it's technically not categorized as a renewable but nonetheless we get 40% of our energy from clean sources. 19% renewables, 20% nuclear.

 

I get what you are trying to say because it’s literally the same echo chamber. The reality is, we aren’t there yet and won’t be for decades, every credible study says the same thing, need more data.

EDIT: Nothing clean about nuclear waste, reactor meltdowns, and nuclear fuel.

 

Aren't where yet? getting 100% of our energy from a clean source in the USA? I agree, we won't be at that point for at least another 10+ years.

 

I would argue all categories but the two most important factors for people to make the switch is cost vs efficiency and from an EV perspective, utility.

 

The cost of gas will continue to rise into the future making EV's the smart "cost" option for consumers. The Covid shutdown refineries choosing to not re-open and no new refineries opening domestically as investors recognize it's a dying industry, on top of continued legislative pressure to force the market over to EV's, the writing is on the wall, though I agree we aren't 100% there today and you can't just legislatively force technological advancements, it needs to come naturally in the free market by being the cost competitive option.

I do find it funny people always talk about the environmental cost to produce an EV but don't ever question or talk about what the true economic cost of a gallon of gas is when you account for externalities. We not only pay less for our gas than our gas-tax-loving European neighbors, we also pay less than we should be to cover all the external costs that the gas accrues. This subsidizing of gas will make it take longer for the market to naturally move to EV's.

 

“Most comes from a very environmentally friendly process of salt mining were water is simply pumped underground and lithium is brought to the surface. Not to mention the required materials to be mined to produce other electronics that go into ICE vehicles as well...”

OMG - the source of this information is rubbish. The salt mining process for lithium is just another way of strip mining. Lithium production is NOT environmentally friendly in 2022.

 

Refineries were built as late as 2019, you dont know anyone in the Energy business do you? Refineries are idle because energy companies aren't allowed to drill

 

As a 30 year experience technical executive in the energy (electrical AND fossil fuel), I can assure you that much of your “data” is from political motivated sources, and not from actual science. This statement above is entirely / absolutely incorrect.

You clearly have a lot of passion for this topic. I strongly encourage you to join the energy industry and employ your desire for EV’s to succeed. You could help us resolve some of the real world problems and stop believing the political rhetoric from both parties.