Avoiding ethanol

I think you mean ADM, AMD makes cpu's. But I have read that for weed whackers, blowers and 2 cycle engines, pure gasoline is better for seals and gaskets. For lawn mower gas cans, i try to find 100% gasoline even if it a few cents more.

 

Nice find; I indeed got it mixed up. I will be running an electric generator for a travel trailer soon, so I am particularly concerned about the cornshit issue.

 

OK, somehow, you totally missed the point of my post. I was agreeing with your post and the NON-solution I was mentioning was the one the government offers up by mixing ethanol in a feeble attempt to stretch gas supplies while offering up propaganda about ethanol will supposedly help with air pollution. Also ethanol is not a worthwhile alternative when it causes problem for food supplies for us and for feeding livestock. It is another way to destabilize gas prices even further based on ethanol supply availibility which is now based on weather allowing for good corn harvests. No sarcasm was employed in my response to your post. Sorry for not being clear enough for you haha. Ethanol was what solves nothing and creates a side problem, not your post. BTW, I have no problems with anyone's contributions to discussions whatever they are so let's not go down that silly road.

 

[FONT=Times New Roman,Georgia,Times]
[/FONT]How about some science supported facts instead of more alarmist hyperbolic opinion...

http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html

A few choice tidbits from summaries for those who won't follow the link, much less take the time to read the studies...

"This study identifies the factors causing this wide variation and develops a more consistent estimate... We show that corn ethanol is energy efficient as indicated by an energy ratio of 1.24."

"Only about 17% of the energy used to produce ethanol comes from liquid fuels, such as gasoline and diesel fuel. For every 1 BTU of liquid fuel used to produce ethanol, there is a 6.34 BTU gain."

"In this updated paper the numbers look even more attractive: more energy is contained in the ethanol and the other by-products of corn processing than is used to grow the corn and convert it into ethanol and by-products."[FONT=Times New Roman,Georgia,Times]

" Ethanol generates 35% more energy than it takes to produce, according to a recent study by Argonne National Laboratory conducted by Michael Wang. " [FONT=Times New Roman,Georgia,Times]

Most, if not all, of the disinformation about energy economics of ethanol production originates from Cornell professor, David Pimental whose work (supported by...guess who...big oil) was thoroughly discredited by the scientific community. In a very curious proof that 'politics makes for strange bedfellows', these myths have been further embellished by Sierra Club and the U-Cal Berkley left-wing environmentalist crowd working in close concert with...again...big oil. Wow.

To those who think it's affecting food prices consider this fact: over 70% of corn is used for animal feed and other non-food uses. And this was BEFORE the push to develop non-food crops for ethanol production.



[/FONT][/FONT]

 

Well if I had to vote based on these assumptions about ethanol

1. It has the potential to "absorb" or form a chemical bridge between water and the gasoline in my tank, fuel system and engine. (Do you totally trust the gas stations? And no gas tank is always airtight. There is a lot of humidity in the air in GA.)

2. All tank and fuel system components, including the sensors, must be 100% compatible with ethanol as a solvent.

3. Energy content (and therefore mileage) is slightly reduced



I am voting:

A. - NO my vehicle is NOT better off with ethanol in the gas.

 

Not only is it possible but it IS fully sealed... take off your gas cap and watch the CEL illuminate. The system is designed to consider the pressures involved and compensate accordingly. The seal may not be perfect but it's more than good enough to protect against thermal pumping that brings moisture into the system. They've been this way since the 80's, with CEL's telling you the seal is compromised since OBD-II in the mid-90's.

Hydrogen/electric? are you serious? you have been reading WAY to many PopSci fantasy articles! At BEST you'll get hybrid... like prius.

 

The question is NOT whether your vehicle is better off with/without it even though, no matter how much the mis-informists try to tell us otherwise, it does it no harm.

The question is: is the COUNTRY better off with ethanol in the gas.

It clearly is.

 

One way... return it to the tank at the same rate you're pumping it out minus the small amount used in combustion. I believe the purpose of the fuel evap canister is to control ingress of outside air into the system in ADDITION to control evaporation, the caps purpose is a safety valving; could be wrong though. The main thing is to limit thermal pumping: with a one-way valve the most air that can be drawn in is maybe 20 gal's until fresh fuel is put in; not much overall moisture in only 20 gals of air and doubtless easily handled by 2-3 gal's of ethanol. With thermal pumping hundreds or thousands of gallons may be brought in and expelled with temperature changes. At any rate: proof this is all just overblown hyperbole are the millions of trouble-free vehicles, driven and refueled regularly by idiots, on the road today.

Toyota MAY have a nice experimental or semi-production model on the road by 2015... but IF states license a rolling Hindenburg (as it will be perceived) to drive on the highways there will be no infrastructure in place to support it. That means ever so few places to buy hydrogen so your stuck within operating radius of your home until then. It's not the SCIENCE of hydrogen vehicles; coming from Oklahoma it used to be really popular to do LPG conversions which isn't TOO dissimilar in concept. It's the infrastructure: regulatory, TAX, design/safety standards, repair/maintenance/servicing, TAX, TAX, TAX etc. etc. etc. that make it sooo difficult.

And about that... don't kid yourself that local communities will allow hydrogen generating apparatus in homes until fully approved... and therefore a means established to tax you on production (which might be suspended in the early years to get interest). Too, I doubt the 2nd law of thermodynamics will be suspended so the electricity needed to produce it won't be free.

I have no idea what the energy economics are for this, but I'm sure it will fully depend on an infrastructure being in place to make it economically viable. That means economies of scale and most people DON'T have a lot of land to set up wind turbines, etc. as you plan (which aren't free either).

I don't think there will be one replacement for petroleum, especially in the near term. It will be interesting to see if this one pans out... so I'll watch for it. But I don't have high hopes for it being the anointed solution. That one worry about the rolling Hindenburgh is especially hard to overcome as it's more emotional than anything else; this hysteria that surrounds ethanol tells me it's not wise to ignore it.

In the mean time: I got what I got and ethanol is a good way to reduce my tribute to foreign oil interests by 10-15% right now.

 

The station where I buy ethanol free gas costs the same as all the other surrounding stations. Not more than 5 cents a gallon difference between any of them if that much.

And I certainly haven't encountered any logical explanations that match my own knowledge of chemistry to be convinced that the main benficiaries are not just the ethanol producers and the auto repair industry.

Heck look at the push for everyone to convert over to the compact flourescent light bulbs. Save energy, reduce dependence yada yada. They didn't mention that one little drawback that if you break one you have to evacuate and call in a chem hazard team to clean up the mercury.

 

It concerns you very much because economies of scale come in to play only when LOTS of people are buying the same thing to bring unit costs into affordable range. Hydrogen generating systems are obviously available now... but are also hugely cost prohibitive, fully installed. So, you're depending very much on millions of people finding it as attractive as you do so that they will buy the same stuff you want and bring the cost down.

And, like i said, wind turbine, solar cells, whatever you use to provide electricity will cost a bundle. You can take the twenty-hundred thou or so and invest it, or buy those gizmos. You gotta run the numbers to figure the true cost of lost opportunity.

That is EXACTLY what people forget when they tell you how much money they are saving with a Prius...it's a damned expensive little POS. They could have left the money in their 401k and made a lot more than the cost of gas differential for the same little POS conventional car. If they ever have to replace the batteries even that delusion is lost in a flash.

Try as you like, you won't get away with 'free fuel'. Government will find you and drag you back on-grid... as soon as you go to tag it will be the most likely place. They'll either look for evidence of tax payed on fuel or simply tax you for miles driven in the year or something similar.

That's why it will take so much longer than 2015 to have it on the market; the states have to have a method to tax them. If they aren't talking about it in the statehouse right now it won't be ready in 4 years. That Toyota and others aren't agitating the states to prepare for it is a sure sign they aren't confident the technology will be economically viable by that time frame.

This isn't gonna be free, you just have to do the analysis correctly and not be delusional about it.

 

Right. Ok. Sure.

So then... since you're confident it's viable have you done a sizing analysis? How much hydrogen would be required, on a daily basis, to fuel such a vehicle? How much electrical energy would be required to produce it? I assume, since you're talking home generation, you would use an electrolysis process; methane extraction would be kinda stupid anyway since, if you had enough methane for that why not just fuel your vehicle with it?

Are you so sure a $100 wind turbine would provide enough energy for an electrolysis plant of sufficient capacity for your car?

I've told you a very good cost: the cost of lost opportunity. You have to run the numbers and be rational, I don't believe you'll find hydrogen generation in the home as cheap as you think. A 400mL generator, for instance, costs $7900, I think you'd need 10 or 20 of those to fuel your vehicle.

OH yes, and I am very well aware of the tax on gasoline... they will most assuredly replace that lost revenue with a tax on hydrogen or something else. A tax is a cost to you associated with the hydrogen use, just as the gas tax is a cost rolled up in the cost of the gas. If you're wanting too say it's a 'wash' OK, but you can't just ignore it.

 

Not so in my area. Pumps at most stations are labelled 87, 89, 91 (and sometimes 93). The Marathon station (which is listed on pure-gas.org) I go to does not have the government required statement "up to 10% ethanol" on any of their pumps. Their gas prices are the same as the neighbors. It wouldn't surprise me to find out they are lying and violating the law without the ethanol stickers, but the inspectors are usually pretty tight around here.

[/QUOTE]then, let me pour a cup of water into your gas tank in the winter while it is still below freezing out.
[/QUOTE]

Huhhh? Water is mainly why I believe gasahol is overall slighlty worse than pure gas.

However, I am not an alarmist about it. As long as ethanol free is available at the same price in a convenient location I am going to go with it. If the price difference gets too much, then I would definitely have to compromise and save it for the lawnmowers.

[/QUOTE]
Are you seriously comparing ethyl alcohol to MERCURY??!?!?
[/QUOTE]

No I was comparing one hastily contrived (in my opinion) government-industry push on the American consumers to another one in recent memory.

 

I kinda didn't 'cause I saw how small the quantity was (500g per 8hr night) and realized it was for a fuel cell vehicle... now you talk about unrealistic technology for consumer use, that would be fuel cells.

I'd like to see your $100 wind turbine and it's energy output plots.

 

Can't we just put a couple of the wind generators on the roof and let them run the car? They'll charge/run the car while the car goes down the road generating wind? Wouldn't need giant batteries, just enough battery for car to start generating wind then the generators run the car. Put a solar panel on the dash to trickle charge the battery just so it always has enough to get the car going?

 

oh cool!

but if you DID put some batteries in it and used like dyna-motors you could power the blades like big propellers... and then you could like point 'em to the sky and lift up like a helicopter... and then you could like go pick up a bunch a like sh1t and go to Washington and like drop it on the capital and then they'd like let us all have REAL GASOLINE!

like, that would all be so cool!

 

Give it up....you'll be arguing for years.

 

My apologies for the belated bump, but I thought I would give an update.

I filled up at an ethanol-free station, and cash only to boot. If there is one thing I like less than agribusiness, it is bankers. It was $3,39 in NC compared to $3,48 in VA which has lower petrol taxes. I tested it using the kit, and it was indeed E0 i.e. cornshit free.

The auto accelerated a bit quicker and I observed a 6% increase in MPG. Please note this is highway mile for highway mile aside from restroom stops. I was at less than 1/8 of a tank when I topped it off, so the current tank is E1 or thereabouts. I plan on purchasing a large gas tank (>20gal) for the bed of the truck so that I might enjoy pure petrol on a more continuous basis.

With all due respect to buddy's arguments herein, I am sure others would like to experience these benefits for themselves, and I encourage them to replicate my experiment and post their findings. To save others the trouble, the site is http://pure-gas.org/, and I recommend calling ahead to make sure they still carry E0 petrol. I used the Briggs & Stratton gasohol testing kit; it is reasonably priced, but if you use another, please be sure to make note.