Are stock Tacoma wheels hub centric or lug centric?

Looking through old threads. 2 questions.

-if you put a lugcentric aftermarket wheel on does this mean it's at higher risk of cracking the wheel because of the small distance between the lugs and center hole? Lugcentric wheels use conical lugs?

-why are Toyota wheels best used with the pin plate adapter during balancing since they are hub centric? I thought cones were used for hub centric and pin plate for lugcentric....could be totally wrong on that I admit.

What's confusing for me....other then the above....is I'm looking at method 317 wheels for a 5th gen 4r. These wheels are 106.25 hub bore size....4r is 106.1. No ring that small to make up the difference so even though tolerance is super close it's still considered lugcentric? I've learned enough to get more confused....

 

Again...
-If it has conical lug seats it is lugcentric, regardless of bore size.
-A 100%, true hubcentric wheel will have a 106.1 bore and uses flat washer lug nuts.

 

This is what I'm talking about when the bore center does not coincide with the bolt circle center. The other unknown here, is what does the overall center of the wheel coincide with; the bore or the bolt circle?
In this example a hub spacer ring would not solve this. A 100% lugcentric balance would not solve this; at best, it would require a lot of weight to balance.

 

Here are a couple excerpts from Hunter literature on balancer mounting.

"The LUG CENTRIC wheel is a poor design often causing inaccurate balance and customer vibration complaints. Unless the issue can not be avoided....it is best to stay away from these types of wheels if vibration complaints are to be minimized. A lug centric wheel is identified by removing the lug nuts (or lug bolts) and the wheel is then moved up/down and side/side to see if the wheel will move around the center of the pilot hole and the mounting hub on the vehicle. If movement of the wheel while placed on the hub of the vehicle is apparent, then the wheel should be mounted on the balancer with a cone from the backside and a FLANGE PLATE to locate the wheel on the balancer by the lug holes in the wheel. This imitates the duplicate mounting of the LUG CENTRIC wheel on the vehicle. Extra mounting care must be taken during the installation of these wheels on the vehicle to ensure the lug bolts are tighten equally in a "step-torque" star pattern to minimize excessive T.I.R.(total indicator runout) at install".

"Precise wheel balancing relies on two critical conditions: accurate
center mounting and distortion-free clamping while providing
wheel protection. The center of the wheel must be properly
located on the balancer shaft. Hub-centric and lug-centric wheels
all use the hub bore as the center locating position of the wheel.
The hub bore centerline is virtually the same as the lug holes.
Traditional high-taper cones often fail to fit properly within the bore
of the wheel. The actual bore of the wheel (not the bore chamfer)
is where centering takes place when the wheel is mounted on a
vehicle. Many modern aluminum wheel designs cannot be properly
mounted with traditional cones."


The part highlighted in red, is again, what I'm referring to. If those are not the same, they can create issues in balancing.

 

So, I think I'm starting to realize something. Whether one buys a hubcentric or a lugcentric wheel the common denominator for wheel vibrations is predominantly the tire tech and their attention to detail. Not always of course....manufacturing defects play a role as well.

Is hunter simply saying the lugcentric design is poor because it's harder to balance....or maybe not harder but takes more finesse?

In my quest for an aftermarket wheel should I stick with a hubcentric wheel if minimizing vibrations is important to me and I want to avoid 5 trips to the tire shop every rotation to get rid of shimmy?

 

That is what I first thought, but you just need a better balance or may have a separate issue.

I am on my second set of KO2s in 265 75 16 with the stock wheels.

In both sets, I needed 3 trips to the shop to get them finally balanced.

In both sets, they were perfect at any speed after it was done right. Plus I am off road every week and they take a beating. They do get pretty noisy though after about 25K miles, assuming they are frequently off road.

 

If the wheel is manufactured correctly and the machine and tools are true, it's the knowledge and finesse of the tech in all aspects; tire mounting on the wheel, tire/wheel assembly mounting on the balancer, being able to check and confirm his own work, and mounting tire/wheel assembly on the vehicle.

One last point concerning hubcentric vs lugcentric...
Hubcentric(flat washer) lug nuts provide superior clamping force over lugcentric(conical) lug nuts given the same torque value. Conical lug nuts 'eat up' torque in the friction between the lug nut and lug seat. Uneven or loss of clamping force within the bolt circle can contribute to vibrations.

 

I have the same tire on stock wheels, as well. I've had them from 200-41,000 miles. Mounted and balanced at my dealership; one trip. No balance issues at all in that time. While I do not offroad per se, they get quite the daily workout on construction sites; especially on the large rock clean outs at the entrances/exits.

 

The less material you have between the center hole and the lug holes, the chances of splitting increase. Also the more torque you put on the lug nuts, the risk increase. Now, the wheel manufacturers know this and do a great job of getting the alloy right to mitigate the risk. Aftermarket wheels use conical seat almost exclusively. Some have lug holes that are large enough that you can use shank/conical seat type 'ET" lug nuts.

They use the pins because the large cone has too much taper. It is hard to center on the balancer shaft. There is a special cone that is made for toyotas that has very little taper and works very well. Even with the bolt plate adapter, you still use the cone. The bolt plate adapter is a pain in the ass to use. You need 4 hands.

.15 difference between the wheel and the hub will probably sit nicely on the hub. It will get it close enough that the lugs will center the rest.

 

Isn't the Toyota taper 'cone' meant for OE hubcentric wheels? A larger cone would rest on a non-machined surface; whereas, the Toyota taper will rest inside the hub bore?

Are you referring to the Haweka adapter? I thought that was called a collet, not a cone? Used in conjunction with a mounting plate...

 

Thanks everyone for you help and info. I was getting so wrapped up in which was better....hubcentric vs lugcentric. I was determined to find which one to reduce risk of steering vibration. It appears the importance is with the tire tech/installer. I feel better about moving away from the OEM wheels and getting aftermarket. I called my local DT store and spoke with a tech. Seemed pretty knowledgeable by the conversation. Coincidently I mentioned I was comparing Method and OEM TRD pro wheels. He immediately said they have a hard time balancing the TRD pro wheels in particular. Interesting for sure. The Methods have the ET lug nuts so I'll make sure to get those. Thanks again!

 

The old large cone that is difficult to center -


The improved cone


Haweka is one of many manufacturers that make balancing products. They were one of the first that made the bolt plate adapter or lug hole adapter or one of the many names for this tool. A Collet is probably by definition is probably not exactly what Haweka is using, but that is probably an argument for engineers. It looks like what haweka is offering is an adapter that mimics a hub flange. I would say that is better than a cone, but using that along with a bolt plate adapter, it would be a real hassle to use over simply back coning a wheel and going on. Shops are focused on speed. No tech want to spend 20 minutes setting up a balancer when you can spin down a cone and get pretty good results.

The big difference between using the adapter and just a cone (or call it a collet if you like) is the position of the device. Getting back to speed, the easiest way is to front cone the wheel. Meaning the wheel goes on then the cone. That isn't how it mounts on the car, but for the majority of wheels, this method works. The correct way is to put the cone on then the wheel. The challenge is that for the majority of wheels, it is difficult to tighten down the hub nut (the part that spins on to the shaft to tighten the wheel on the balancer) without marring the wheel. That is where the adapter comes into play. You can use the lug holes to push the wheel tight against the balancer and center with either the cone or the machined adapter that haweka offers. Haweka addresses this on their site - Haweka - Front Coning Issue (haweka-usa.com)

 

I am genuinely surprised front coning is still a thing. What good is speed if you're always dealing with comebacks?

 

There are a few factors. The first being that it has always been done that way and the percentage of comebacks because of front cone comebacks is pretty small. The other being the risk of trying to back cone every wheel. You either use the bolt plate adapter on every wheel which is a major hassle because of the various bolt patterns along with the hassle of using it or you use a plastic cup on the hub nut which could scratch the wheel. It is basic economics. Using theoretics if I front cone every wheel it costs me $5. If I have 10% comebacks, I am at $5.5 a wheel. However if I back cone every wheel it will cost me $8 every wheel and there is still a chance at a comeback. Now a savvy tire shop can reduce that number of comebacks by knowing what vehicles are a risk by using a front cone. The toyota trucks for instance. A good tech will see that and know that they probably should 1. use the correct cone and 2. back cone with the adapter. The challenge is having techs that know what they are doing. Most tire techs are usually entry level workers. A quick lube gig would be a step up for those guys and we all know about the quality in that industry.

 

On the gravel/dirt roads I travel, my tires pick up and hold so many stones in the tread, I wonder if balancing even makes sense…..

 

It definitely makes it a challenge. Reminds me of when people would come in after a snow storm with tires packed in with ice and grit put down on roads and want their tires balanced. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense.