4th Gen Tacoma (2024+)

Spoiler: Why Does The Same Question Keep Coming Up About Gen 3 Running Under 10 Years?

I don't want to take this thread off topic, but I really don't think it's a good thing, when we've all tried to address in some capacity, who, what, where, why, and how in regards to not only this truck, but even the related 4Runner, yet the same questions keep being asked.

I am definitely unconfident about what's 100% under the hood of the 2024-25 MY Tacoma lineup from base to TRD Pro and Trailhunter, since nothing has been confirmed on Toyota Pressroom and I fully get @stevesnj's sentiment now. Aside from that, I definitely 100% know everything about why the 3rd generation Tacoma turned out the way that it did and why it's being replaced ASAP.

I've tried many times over the past 3-4 years to helpfully share, why the Tacoma is where it is today in terms of past decisions made and why the first generation ran 9.5 years, why the second generation ran 1 month short of 11 years from 2004 to 2015, and why the 3rd generation is calling it quits after just 8 simple years and not instead a full 10 or 11 years.

What bothers me is, seeing as this has been addressed so many times over and over in not just this thread, but several others going all the way back to 2019, my realization is that it's not really worth addressing anymore if it just falls on deaf ears over and over (if not on purpose). I think it's pretty obvious too, based on the heavy similarities to the second gen at face value.

I'm saying this because, this has been same exact issue I have regarding some pessimistic claims, regarding the death of 4Runner on little founded basis. You try and quell any fears of that happening (based on good faith insight), yet the question keeps coming up as if it wasn't discussed before. Not just discussed by me, but many people here. I've tried very hard to explain why this truck has a short run, in spite of understandable skepticism (based on past patterns) towards such an authoritative take.

A lot of Tacoma owners and potential buyers didn't expect Toyota to be replacing this truck sooner than 2025/26, based on past long life cycles. All I could go off of previously at one point in time, was just internal pipeline timelines I saw for MY 2023 - Tacoma Full Model Change - SOP 7/01/2022 - TMMTX back in 2016 and for the then-new 2016 Tacoma, listed as MY 2016 SOP 07/01/2015 - EOP 6/30/2022 - TMMTX.

Although I asked some contacts, who I thought could answer those questions for me, I then recalled years earlier when I briefly stinted for Toyota. Being told in 2010 not to expect much with the "3rd generation" Tacoma, as it wasn't on track like I expected. I didn't listen to them and found out the hard way later in January 2014, when what I expected didn't happen. I had expected a new from scratch 2015 Tacoma and instead saw another year of the 2nd gen, from teasers of the soon to be revealed 2015 Tacoma TRD Pro.

Talking to a former TW user, a rather supercilious product planner (on the 989A Tacoma Program) formerly based at Toyota's old Torrance, California headquarters, he confirmed all of my suspicions in 2020 (away from this website). He explained in detail why the 2016 Tacoma was so half-baked.

From early planning in 2011, the 2016 truck was never meant to run more than 6-8 years, which per August 2015 line-off assembly dates and September 11, 2015 launch, meant anywhere from a 4th generation Tacoma arriving between the second half of 2021 up until January 2024. According to him (edited for clarity, redacted text to protect IP) in 2020, after I shared privately a 2022 Tundra leak via PM:

This was the timetable Toyota set in 2011-12, for the 3rd generation Tacoma as development began under 989A Program, scheduled for Q3 2015 both Job 1 and market launch. 989A source lamented personally above, how so many concessions were made to his chagrin and that of his team members, under M.S. () to keep it under tight budget.

The 989A Program was given a VERY mediocre budget to work with, in seeing that the midsize truck segment was a ghost town around 2012 and Nissan likely wasn't sure what they were doing, with GM only being the sole possible threat with USDM redesign expected around 2014.

To Toyota, in spite of the 5.3 V8 option on some 1G Colorados/Canyons, those first GM compacts were a piss poor truck, vastly inferior to the more "Lexus-like" Tacoma and competent Frontier.

Per studying the midsize truck globally market, Toyota had seen the all-new global Chevrolet/Holden Colorado in 2011 and while a vast improvement, they also saw how much GM copied the hell out of both the incumbent (2nd gen) Tacoma and Hilux. Ditto for the 2012 Ford T6 Ranger (P375), which wouldn't be coming to USA, in being seen as too close to F-150 size.

Toyota product planners saw many components of the Gen 2 Colorado inferior to their own product line in Tacoma (upper) and global Hilux (lower). They weren't threatened in the least, but needed to do a Major Minor Change to the Tacoma, that was a bit more than 2014 Tundra, but not too drastic and expensive. Plus, instead of doing so much development in Japan, like for the 2nd generation Tacoma by Hino, keep it all in USA (MI, Cali, TX) to save money.

Concessions were made for the 2016 Tacoma in seeing little to no competitive forces, in anticipation of bigger plans in the early 2020s that allowed for electrification and cost consolidations with other models.

One source of mine said to me a year ago, that the big plan at Toyota many years ago (mid-2010s), upon (thankfully) undoing the planned demise of several nameplates (GX, 4Runner, Sequoia - thanks to infamous sales rebound & dealer protest), was to:

• Continuing developing TNGA-F flagship Land Cruiser 300 and LX, which began in late 2013 and picked up steam in 2014 with the design process starting, consumer clinics in Australia and etc. Add midsize Prado to the basis.
  • 300 didn't arrive until June 2021, being heavily delayed from original plans.
  • Removed from USA per 2018 decision making
  • Lexus version J310 LX instead arrived in February 2022 alone.
  • LC arrives next spring in the form of midsize Prado

• Develop an America-centric body on frame 1500 architecture, for Tundra & Sequoia with a litany of powertrain offerings, (including a diesel once being studied), the Lexus-led TTV8 for use in TRD Pro Sequoia and Tundra, against Raptor products (TRX didn't exist yet). Repurposing of 2UR-FSE hybrid for use in Tundra and Sequoia and V35A-FTS TTV6 as optional engine.

• Develop a Lexus utility, above 310-Series LX. Not sure if it was supposed to be an Escalade ESV competitor or unibody RWD 7-8 Seater like GLS or X7. (source wasn't clear)

• All new midsize ladder frame architecture that replaced the 150-Series basis (modified 120 frame from 2002) which was already in use, from Tacoma (C-Channel) to the boxed frame versions in FJ, LC Prado 150, J150 Lexus GX, and N280 4Runner. The plan was add Hilux and Fortuner to that by 2024, instead of relying on rugged IMV used from 2004 to present on the developing world friendly Innova (MPV), Fortuner (SUV), and Hilux (pickup).

A lot of consolidation was made to different truck/SUV programs and around June 2017, Mike Sweers was sent to Japan after a lot of this was just ditched and everything got forced onto TNGA-F instead. The Tundra that was supposed to become more of a full range product, even more than the already once ambitious 2007 Tundra, got repurposed into using V35A-FTS only. Mike Sweers fought hard to keep a V8 under the hood and IIRC the halo TTV8, but the business case was rejected by Toyota-shi HQ.

Japan HQ were VERY unhappy about every aspect of the 2nd generation Tundra, from Toyoda-san (upon his ascension to the throne) hating the waste that the TMMTX factory had proven to be in his eyes, with so much underused capacity.

To the dismal Tundra sales numbers that only bested the Nissan Titan and seeming inferiority against the Tacoma. While they would stay in the segment, they mandated that no TNGA-F vehicles would offer the UR V8 block and vetoed the request.

The 3rd generation Tundra took a very long 6 years to develop from 2015 to 2021, compared to the Gen II taking only 4 years from 2002 to 2006. Think about that...

Spoiler: COMMENT FROM TOYOTA SOURCE

The modular GA-F almost didn't happen. Toyota Motor North America were going to maintain the original 3 basis in planning. Land Cruiser 300 was going to be one, with Lexus LX, and Land Cruiser Prado. Plus possibly another one sitting above the LX for Lexus, while [redacted IP info] were going to get a global chassis for Hilux, Fortuner, 4Runner, and Tacoma. Tundra/Sequoia was another one by itself. The XK70 780B program was actually pretty far ahead when the GA-F mandate came down in 2016-17, the frame was vastly different and to be honest, better. I pointed out the GA-F chassis had lot of exposure points like the front diff is essentially exposed for rocks, and you could feel a group "sigh" from the guys. If you take a look at XK70 vs XK50 (2007-21) chassis, XK50 (2007-21) had a lot of components hidden by subframe or support cross members, where XK70 is hanging from the cross members. Sweers of course went to Japan in June 2017 for 2 years (to work on TNGA-F).

Another interesting point was also the engine, I don't know if you recall there was a test program for the V8 TT at Toyota, where it was supposed to power the LC-F and LS-F. What management didn't say at that time, it was due to power the XK70, aiming for top of line trim such as TRD Pro and others. For car applications. it was suppose to rate at 600hp/550lb ft, based off the 2UR-GSE (IS-F, RC-F, and now IS500). The hybrid was also supposed to be from a 2UR hybrid from LS 600H. There was plan to utilize the V35A-FTS, but it was not meant to be the only choice. When North America were forced to use the V35A only, had to go with GA-F which at that time was only being utilized for the LC 300 program, since the 2UR+ 10spd was heavier than the V35 set up, it was also one of the reason why the bed is composite as it was meant to save weight by utilizing it with the V8s.

Japanese admins are an interesting bunch to say the least, they have this layer cake hierarchy, nothing is ever set in stone, everything has this vague meaning to it that it can go either way so not to offend others, I recall at one meeting with one of the Japanese big 3s, they had 28 people in the meeting, and our side had 3, it was literately try to show them a concept we were working on at the time, and want them to consider it for development, it should've been a 30mins meeting that went on for 4 hours.

At the end, it was neither confirm or decline, and 4 years later, still same thing.

I know Mike Sweers wanted very different direction for the Tundra, one that's more suited for North American taste, i.e. the TRD Pro suppose to have the twin turbo v8, the factory mid-travel suspension etc, but admins never decline or accept until half way through project, I recall the reason was "we spent so much on the 2nd gen development and it did not yield the results", which was true, but then the Tundra curse also happened (every time a new Tundra is introduced, economy ****storm seem to arrive at the same time). It's the same for LC300, the whole GR Sport was suppose to be the TRD Pro, there was prototypes and validation models, we even had one here with the non-hybrid set up, but then they said "well, LC200 didn't sell very well", yes, it didn't sell well in a market that was not yet ready for such high dollar vehicle, but now the market is ready, you can actually see that Transport Canada HAD certified LC300 for road use.

This is not my own information above; it was privately shared with me a year ago during back-and-forth discussion. I never wanted to publicize it and cut out a chunk for privacy purposes. I cannot verify this narrative 100%, but I believe it came from a good source, one of which I still trust due to their honesty and transparency.

The source is also a very, very low key user on TW who rarely logs in here, but we chat elsewhere from time to time and I've previously shared this with a few users on TW, so as not to dox/expose the source to legal risk. They have a "relationship" with Toyota. I hope they don't see this comment copy-pasting their PM text, but oh well.

Just sharing it here really.

Unlike I had previously thought, before hearing the above a year ago, Toyota didn't always plan to move the 4G Tacoma to TNGA-F, However, they did intend to redesign it a third time, no later than January 2024, as far back as 2011 plans. Alternatively, back in 2011-12, the 4Runner had no future plans beyond the 2014 updates (Sep 2013). TNGA-F I guess, entered the picture for Gen 4 around 2017ish, just before early 920B planning got underway.

Unlike the 3G Tundra, I am guessing none of the midsize next gen models were in development circa 2015. However, since the 6G 4Runner was originally first earmarked for 2022MY redesign as of 2017, it might've been already shortly underway when the shift to TNGA-F was made for all truck models.

Toyota of course, pushed back every BOF redesign by 1 whole year almost 4 years ago in mid-2019, to accommodate powertrain hiccups with iForceMax TTV6 and Toyoda-dictated alterations to the 300-Series during 2018. The platform wide delays were to distance midsize redesigns below them from crowding each other.

Spoiler: Response to doublethebass

Please, don't take my word for it. Just wait and see. There's just too much conflicting insight, probably it is just best to wait until reveal. The sad thing about it is, Toyota could show the 2055 Tundra in front of trusted Toyota personnel and affiliates at a gathering.

Take it away from them and send them on their way, you'll still get different accounts. The smartest of them, won't spill and the rest, might be on the money per assignment and the rest will have the shittiest memory known to man.

It doesn't make sense to me, but it does happen. I don't even know for a fact if anything I was told was right & wrong directly from actual Toyota insiders. Just wait and be ready to pull the trigger on a 2023 by June 1st, if it isn't to your liking.

Spoiler: Great, but I think there's more to that.

Somewhat a good example. The question you're helpfully answering, unfortunately has been politely addressed many times before on TW, but I get the distinct impression that things just often fall on deaf ears and it's just really tiring.

I've tried my best to make that as well known as I can, after doing some research and from asking insiders questions over the years.

Altogether, it is goal #1 at Toyota to shift to TNGA everything and Dynamic Force engines ASAP. The newer plant #2 in Mexico was built with TNGA-F in mind from scratch, years ago that is.

The goal has been to entirely redo this truck before the mid-2020s at all costs. The long lifecycles as I've said many times, were just a consequence, not a set standard at Toyota. Good sales sure do help to justify it, but they definitely don't plan to run long cycles and think long term to meet internal targets.

This had been mentioned by the chief engineer of the 2005 Tacoma, in a 2004 interview and some execs, in regards to several other 4x4 related Toyotas.

The first 15 years of the new millennium had been often very unpredictable for Toyota, in the face of their expansion into becoming a global force through various executive regimes. Since 2013-15, they've been playing catch up with developing and launching TNGA-F.

The approach has been: As soon as it's ready, get it out there.

Tundra took that one to the extreme, running so late and forced through the pandemic with no rescheduling, via keeping the pre-pandemic launch schedule. I believe only Toyota refused to delay anything against COVID.

The first gen Tacoma lasted a bit longer than Toyota envisioned (planned as 7-year run) back in the mid-1990s, because of too much expansion underway (unibody K Platform, Lexus brand, etc) in the late 1990s and specifically growing the 1500 segment products in T-100 to Tundra (1999) and Sequoia (2000).

They didn't have room for a 2nd gen Tacoma arriving in 2002, so it was pushed back almost 3 years to parallel the Hilux redesign in late 2004. This foresight later helped them launch the 120-Series Prado and GX 470, plus 2003 4Runner in late 2002.

The Gen 3 was supposed to be like Gen 4 is today, all-new. That would've been a 2013/14MY redesign originally. That got halted around 2008-09, in favor of the 2012 model (I worked on) and the warmed over 2016.

In 2008, it was risky to commit to an all new midsize frame for 2013, if 6th generation 4Runner wasn't a sure thing nor a 3rd generation Lexus GX outside of global Prado. In 2009, Toyota pushed it all back another decade instead (upcoming TNGA-F redesigns), to observe the SUV market and determine if midsize BOF for USA was a sound investment going forward. Luckily they determined it was a sound investment by 2016 and have been working their way up towards that since.

Well stated.

Thank you for explaining this again. A supercilious TW user who worked on the 2016 Tacoma a decade ago, gave me several bullet points as to what happened and how many things like a 4Runner style power sliding rear window, power seats, etc were deliberately not available at launch in 2015, despite his team campaigning for it. We ignore each other nowadays, but still I trust his past account on developing the 3rd gen Tacoma to be credible nonetheless.

The plan has been a 6-8 year run for Gen 3, even before they even designed the 2016 Tacoma itself. COVID has nothing to do with it, although the final design meetings for Gen 4 took place in the thick of the pandemic in 2020. That's why the BEV concept in 2021 looked so production ready, because the design itself was already defined internally 1 year before that early (BEV) showing.

They only suffered two delays to my knowledge, one serious 1 year delay when the 2020 Tacoma refresh debuted and a second delay during 2021 equaling about 4 months. If COVID had an effect, it would cause delays, not really rush it into production in less than 10 years. Some guys expected a new Gen 4 truck for 2026 or something, via Gen 3 running 10 years.

That didn't happen, because the Gen 3 wasn't thoroughly new like the 2nd generation was at launch and was never supposed to happen that way, but it did thanks to the 2008 crash. Toyota was supposed to introduce an all new Tacoma for Gen 3 and that fell through circa 2008-09 in favor of the 2012 Gen 2.5 update and the 2016.

It's fascinating how much a company can kick the can down the road, if their buyer base permits it, by rewarding them with sales unconditionally anyway...

Spoiler: True, but the Tacoma did change frames during Gen 2. Behind Gen 3...

True, but apparently midlife during the 2nd generation Tacoma, Toyota shifted from the 120-Series frame basis (4th Generation 4R) to updated 150-basis of 2010 4Runner (N280) and LC 150 Prado (plus GX 460). I think this was done with the move from NUMMI assembly in California (1980s-2010) to TMMTX in Texas in 2010 (-2021). Surprisingly, not even with the 2012 MY Mid Model Change.

The 2016 was what many of us call a "tophat" redesign, with moderate changes to the underbody, but a huge redo of the top half, save for the cab only being sharpened up and all new interior. No thanks to TNGA-F delays, Gen 3 ran longer than the internally idealized 6-7 year run, envisioned in 2011. (Ideally they wanted an all new Tacoma for MY 2022 as of 2011-12, but by late 2014 as things wrapped up, it became 2023. It became 2024 in 2019.)

Unlike the 2014 Tundra, Toyota considered the amount of changes made to the 2016 Tacoma to be defined as a Major Minor Change and not the usual Full Model Change (that they consider most redesigns to be), yet figuratively a new generation.

The 2014 Tundra should've met the same criteria, warranting the 3rd generation designation, but Toyota passed on marketing it as such and left the public in the dark, until 2021 when introducing the current Tundra as Gen 3 instead. At Ford, we've treated a number of F-Series redesigns on the same predecessor basis, as different generations. Notably the 2009 F-150 and 2021 F-150 respectively, as well as the 1999, 2008, 2011, and 2023 Super Duties.

Toyota is fine with doing the same con job on the Tacoma, but not so much the Tundra which remained 2nd generation, in spite of huge changes for 2014 inside-out like a new generation (a la Ford) and another minor refresh for 2018. For the 2027 F-150, well I cannot comment on that here, but you'll easily identify a past pattern we follow, changing a bit...

Even though some people on other Toyota/Lexus forums want to argue over it, Toyota regards each model redesign differently and doesn't consider everything to be FMC (Full Model Change).

Those that ride on the same architecture, moderately modified might be designated internally as Major Minor Change.

If more significant, Full Model Change. I think Toyota considered the 2005 Tacoma to be a Full Model Change, the 2016 to be Major Minor Change (per their TMMTX website), and 2024 is Full Model Change, in having an all-new frame and etc.

MMC is an acronym which has two meanings at Toyota oddly enough. Mid Model Change (ie 2009, 2012, 2020 Tacoma refresh/facelifts) and Major Minor Change (2016 redesign). I've noticed a lot of Toyota/Lexus experts on other forums aren't particularly aware of that and arguing on that basis, negating the reality that Toyota doesn't call every redesign a Full Model Change, if too much is shared with a previous generation model, including the "platform".

In conclusion, it's all a bunch of discretionary marketing nonsense. If marketing wants to call an all new grille a new generation, well it gets rubber stamped if TPTB can get away with it.

 

Happy Taco Tuesday everyone. Hope we get a good teaser today

 

Oh trust me I know all about that one. I was at TMMTX campus as an TPS Engineer for an on site supplier. I was helping another engineer change the plant over and it was a complete mess. Talk about some long hours. Not fun at all. I think we worked for 15 or 17 hours a couple days in a row over a weekend.

I did get to see some 4th gen Tacoma parts when I was there though...including a rendering of the dash.

 

It'll be a photo of tire tracks left by the Gen 4 with the lens cap still on the camera.

 

ahhaha

 

Patiently waiting for our cropped and zoomed in teaser image

 

Was this picture of the grill up last week? I don't remember it but I may have simply glazed past it. It certainly looks like the renders on some websites.

Found it here FYI: https://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/tacoma/

 

That picture released two weeks ago with the first round of teaser images

 

I figured I simply missed it! Thanks!

 

Well, it’s Taco Tuesday, and no new teasers yet…

 

https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/4th-gen-teaser-pics-4-11-23-update.797777/

 

Waiting for my teaser…

 

How dare you!

 

I followed that link and had to laugh at one of the comments there.

I was at Home Depot the other day and saw the Santa Cruz. Made me realize that most likely that little Korean El Camino is going to have higher displacement than the new Tacoma. Kinda sad really.

 

Thank you for bringing it up. I feel like if we are ONLY allowed to talk about Tacomas and nothing else, why that would be un-American!

 

I'm not a photoshopper, but that top photo really has a sense of "photoshopped" to me...

 

They really seem to be holding out with teasing the interior so far

 

The depth of that bedside does seem odd