Should dealership check rings/valves when replacing head gasket?

Hi
Had my head gasket repaired by a dealership. After the repair noticed the timing cover leaking and truck using/leaking/burning 2 qts in 3-500 miles.

So now the cover is repaired drove 500 km and the oil is down from full - second dott to level at first dot on dipstick ( looks like about 1-2 quarts to re-fill to second dot full.)

2 quarts oil used in 500km or 300 miles

no blue smoke , no stain on my driveway
Have read about oil consumption on 2.7 L 2010 motors snd rings are normally the cause.

So question- would they or should they check the rings/valves when replacing the head gasket? I am no mechanic so have no idea just looking for advice!

Thanks in advance!
Laser

 

There is no real protocol in many cases. Your complaint or immediate repair is addressed on a repair. If an oil consumption issue was noted pre repair this should raise a concern. But it can be in the techs hands. The fact that certain higher mile Toyotas have ring/oil consumption issues could be present could raise a legitimate concern. An experianced common sense, caring tech can be hard to find. Although he cant have a personal relation with every car and owner. Ultimately the owners are responsible for upkeep and quality repairs.

 

To replace the head gasket the engine remains in the engine bay, to remove the rings would require engine removal. So the simple answer is no.

 

They replaced the valve cover and spark plug tube gaskets, as well?

 

If they machined the heads, it has new valve seals, not that they cause major oil consumption.

Piston rings no, you will just see carbon on top on the piston, but there is no way to tell how bad it is on the ring lands.

Unfortunately, there's no real way to repair the ring lands except for replacing pistons while the head is off, but its not something we check unless there's a complaint of oil consumption prior.

Were you checking oil levels before?

 

Hi steves snd bishop 84

Steve’s: I’m not sure if they replaced those I suspect not.

bishop84: only noticed oil loss after head gasket replacement and when up on a hoist saw leaking timing chain cover but not dripping just a sweat/soak which they repaired but oil consumption is still happening. Thsnks for replying !
Laser

 

If the customer doesn't say anything to the service writer, the service writer won't say anything to the tech. A leakdown test could likely identify a piston ring issue but the tech doesn't have any extra time for that in the course of a HG replacement

 

Thsnks mad hst! Appreciate your reply

 

Thsnks bro appreciate it !
Laser

 

(1 Limited Toyota) started to touch on a proper answer. How many miles? What was the reason for the head gasket replacement? How was the issue presented to the service writer? Did you ask for a head gasket replacement, or did you express a concern? IE: did you say, I am using coolant, I notice oil leaks, I have a burning smell. These answers may make a difference but a quality experienced tech should also be asking these questions as part of their evaluation of the job/concern. Back in my day as a tech (Ford) I would not hesitate to recommend a long block if there was significant mileage along with other issues such as significant oil leaks, noise concerns. But I also understand that techs can be gun shy of recommending something that has not yet completely failed and being blamed for replacing something that did not need to be. I would usually present three options for the customer (regardless the size of the job) and if I had the ability to do so I would talk directly to the customer. During that conversation I could explain to the customer why I was recommending (X) and the possible consequences of doing (Y). Dealerships I believe function a bit different these days however. This is one of the reasons independent shops exist that specialize in particular brands. They are usually started by master techs that get fed up with the business side of dealerships. As always communication is key.

 

Yeah but if a king story: here’s the coles notes.
Bought a 2010 2.7 2wd 285000 Kms on it
On test drive noticed no heat at stop sign but pull away and full heat with rpm.
Salesman said they would get that fixed.

take delivery of truck notice still ongoing on a 1500 km trip and research Tacoma world - mechanics say low coolant or head gasket. Go out check oil all good but find coolant overflow full to the top with motor oil. Now head gasket for sure.

drive truck home - dealership is hesitant but we agree to a split of $ for head gasket repair. After the repair drive 500 Kms notice oil down to first dot on stick and at Toyota dealership in different town they tell me timing chain cover is leaking.

drive back home burn/ use 2 qtd of oil take to dealership snd they hesitate again but fix timing chain leak 0$.

now a few weeks later drive 300 Kms and oil down 1 qt. So no leaks just using/burning a lot.
Not sure my next move. Thought I had it fixed with the timing chain cover leak but no!
thanks for everyone helping out appreciate the advise x 10!!!!!!
laser

 

1. the dealer fixes the issue. If the car is brought in for complaint of leaking head gasket, diagnosis is quoted to verify that, and a repair to repair it. Putting a maximum of 10 miles on it and testing the cooling system does not provide indication of fault with the oil circuit.

2. piston rings would not be inspected. They are inside the block. The head is on top of the block. Replacing the head does not give access to piston rings.
There isn't need for inspecting valves. If a head put on came straight from a machine shop, it falls under the machine shop to do the valvework. Aside from that mechanically installation includes setting timing, which does not relate to oil.

These are two separate issues with two different repairs.

You've got two ways to lose oil.
A leak, which you can find
or internal consumption, through things like piston rings. Negligent oil changes can accelerate this. I am not saying you did that.

At any rate, repair of that is complicated and costly. To take the motor out, or take it apart underneath gaining access to loosen rod bolts, either dropping the crank to pull pistons out the bottom, or taking apart what is needed to get them out the top. Inspecting the bores for any issue. Possibly even measuring clearances.
Burning enough oil, long enough, can also damage cats.
To then either put new rings, or new pistons. Pistons can wear, as can any coating on them, if they have certain coatings.

I would say what is cheaper to try first, if you have nothing to lose
1. make sure the PCV system is working properly, if it has one
2. make sure it's a good quality oil resistant to burning off
3. there's various "home remedy" type DIY procedures to try and unstick rings, as well as improve/restore their performance. Things like:

-spoon full of Marvel Mystery Oil poured atop the pistons, to do a ring soak (do not hydrolock it)
-running diesel instead of the oil, for a short period of time, to perform an internal cleaning (have only heard of this, never done it)
-changing to a more aggressive OCI interval to try and clean the engine inside slowly and gently, to not kick up a bunch of debris to clog things or overwhelm the filter
-a flush type of operation, such as can of BG EPR, where with it in the oil you can idle it, idle at raised RPM, or beat on it around the block, all probably while it's already hot, then drain out
If I had an engine, I would be trying a $10 can before a $3k repair.
In fact, I've already done some of that stuff on my truck, because why not. No issues.

I've also heard of DIY mixes to include the use of things like ATF, which has a lot of cleaning detergents in it
I'm sure there's info online various places about this if you search associated terms like ring soak, ring clean, reseat rings, etc.

the idea behind the above things being they're easier and cheaper to try first before dropping thousands on a repair
to see if they work first, as kind of a hail mary approach


oil leak it depends. The stock skid plates are marginal. It might roll right off and you not see. Unless it gets on something else, burns off and makes a smell, or drips right down onto the road behind you to not notice
unless you leave it parked on a driveway or clean garage, metal pan, or cardboard over time to catch and see any leaks

and that's just generalized info. Not even getting to the specifics of that engine, what it tends to do in real life long term based on it's design and parts
and any internal information such as TSB's (bulletins) whose access tends to be kept away from owners in the public who would probably benefit from seeing it; TSB access would help owners keep their truck on the road and provide a better image of the brand with the truck running, than broken.

For example, who knows. Maybe there's a TSB of defective parts that do this after a while, and updated/superceded/revised/improved replacement parts.
Other manufacturers do this all the time. Not really Toyota. Toyota is more of "let's keep the same shit design, if it's under warranty replace the failed shit part with the same shit part (but new) and hope to kick it on own the road long enough to get out of warranty, then hope they trade it in for a turd gen and give us some more of that Sales Money"

One time, I actually had a car that burned a lot of oil because the factory installed piston rings upside down to where they sent oil into the combustion chamber
previous owner decided never to do the recall that included engine replacement, even though it was free

 

Wow taco Tuesday what a thoughtful and comprehensive reply.

I am open snd willing to try all your suggestions probably with the change to different oils snd flush items first.
Thsnk you so much for taking the time - much appreciated
Laughing at the @ Toyota selling the same shit parts!!” You are bang on!
Laser

 

I mean, some oils clean more than others. As does tweaking the OCI interval to be more frequent, such as to 3k instead of every 5k.
That could be if there's yellow Mobil 1 varnish that you're hoping to clear out. Or unknown prior owner service history.

I have ran a can of EPR before, as it seemed better than other stuff auto parts stores usually have
which just to keep it simple engine was already warm, added it, idled about 10min, then drained/oil change.
With air ventilation available during idling, as to not breath exhaust fumes

there's also fuel additive, though it's ability to change anything down in the rings is probably unlikely
or people who set up water injection rigs, similar to a fuel injection flush, or doing an actual fuel injection flush
thought that as well may not reach down into rings, and is more for other stuff



I don't know off the top of my head what the rings are like on a 2.7

but I have seen on other engines, piston rings be not the best design and by or around 100k, clogged with carbon to the point they're stuck, unable to move around and conform to the shape of the cylinder bore, resulting in burning of oil
which is also evidenced by above-normal blackness at the tailpipe



other things can cause it too. Like a significant scratch on the cylinder wall, if the design construction from factory is weak, or excessive wear like if previous owner beat on it when cold or something, etc.

no way to really know until you start
-experimenting trying different things to see what works
-performing more diagnostic tests to try and develop a picture of what's going on, inspecting the engine
-checking for TSB's, etc.
-any kind of teardown

like someone said, testing includes things like leakdown test
compression test
pulling spark plugs to borescope with a $25 camera kit (Amazon, app) and hand rotating the piston down to make room for inspecting the bore
(which still doesn't let you see rings condition)
problem with quick easy camera into the bore is that it can be misleading. It's not good enough like the naked eye on a torn apart engine on a table; does not give 100% ability to see or feel a scratch, or something may look like a scratch when it's really not (shadow, etc.)

 

Hey taco Tuesday

so…… got 5.8 litres of Valvoline restore 10w30 put into the 2.7.
Drive about 350 km so far and oil level has not budged.!!! Crazy (usually down 1-1.5 quarts per 300 kn.

so now I was thinking of changing oil filters once every week or 2 to clean up the junk hopefully getting cleaned out of my engine while running the oil for 3-5 thousand Kms? Does this sound right or should I be adjusting this filter/oil change intervals?

thsnk you again for all your advise much appreciated. Will keep updating as I get further into this ( dealership is quoting rebuild) maybe I won’t need it??!!

laser

 

Silly question, did you get the oil changed when you did the head gasket?

 

Yes I’m sure they did and put in the recommended 0w20 syn. (Which this truck was burning not leaking)
Laser

 

Update:
Got my valvoline restore 10-w30 from a local Cummins dealer - 2 gallons (90$ each cdn) and took it to a local Toyota garage. They put in the required 5.5 ish quarts and new filter.

I drove 500 Kms snd zero oil loss.
Took the truck back to Toyota snd got them to just change only the filter as this is a high detergent diesel oil that was made to clean rings snd cylinders.

so - so far so good - intend to run 5000 km with multiple filter changes and see if I can stop this motor from burning 1qt/500km

The real test will be going back to 0w20 or maybe a 5w30 snd see what it does after 5000km with the restore.

will advise!
Laser

 

Update july 18/23

burning oil again - 3/4 quart in 300 Kms.
This kinda sucks - will finish the 5000km and then switch to cheap 10w30 regular oil. Probably rings.

Really blew some major black smoke today when climbing a hill in cruise control snd the tranny went into crazy mode - downshifted and blew black smoke like a furnace.
Love this truck hate the motor.

Laser

 

You are right in every way shape and form with your statement above.

At the end of the day, it's the owners responsibility to mention as to whether or not they are burning a quart of oil or two every 1000-1500 miles.