Electric vs Gas Cost

I have to preface this by saying I am not against EV's. That being said I have several questions and concerns about them.

1st the majority of the cost of fuel is various road taxes,we're are the taxes for EV's being considered? The more EV's that are on the road the more this will come into play. I know that some states charge more for the tags but that likely will be insufficient to cover the road taxes as the EV's become more popular.

2nd, does the cost of operating an EV take into consideration the battery will not last as Long as the rest of the vehicle will? Battery replacement is not an inexpensive repair.

3rd, the disposal for they batteries has not been addressed thoroughly, if I understand correctly these batteries cannot be recycled so they would be hazardous waste.

4th, if just 25 percent of our transportation needs switched to EV's, our electric grid would not be capable of handling the demand. If everyone that had an EV would have their own power generation system the problem with the electric grid would be nullified but the road taxes would still be an issue.

I believe there is a place for EV'S, but I don't think they are quite ready for prime time yet.

 

This is all covered in the EV thread. Lots of places to research all this info...

Road taxes are paid through registration of an EV in some states.

Batteries are expected to last 200-400 miles.

All EV manufacturers are building or use 3rd party battery recycling companies or batteries are repurposed for battery backup systems.

Infrastructure monies are still being distributed to upgrade the US electrical grid. Except Texas.

 

All of the answers are generally canned responses to denigrate or minimize the the posters concerns. I have researched every one of the points I have made and the resulting information provided by searching does not provide cohesive evidence that the issues are being addressed.

I do believe EV'S are a viable alternative for many drivers, I do not think they will be the be all, end all, answer to our transportation needs. If an EV is good for you, great. I have many many more concerns regarding EV'S that I didn't address because they come across as argumentative or politically biased, that was not my intent.

I could analyze each of your responses and point out the issues that they do not address, but once again, I was not being argumentative I was stating concerns. None of which were addressed effectively.

 

Whatever. It's the facts that I have found and researched for years. Not canned.. But factual.

 

You need to understand folks, lets call it exhaustion, with these questions. If you questions are legitimate then no worries and thanks for asking, however these are the common detractors recanted over and over again by the anti-ev crowd when truth be told the information on this is rather readily available. His responses are not "canned" however, they are a summary of the information out there.

stevensnj addressed them but maybe some expansion on the topic can help. That said, he did give you everything you may need to dig into it further yourself and the questions themselves cannot be fully addressed through posts like these.

To your point.

1) When you look at the average amount of road tax paid by an ICE vehicle the increase in registration costs recoups the same amount of money. Roughly speaking it is around $200 a year but may vary state to state. The majority of states in the US have adopted this method and it is recouping the "road tax". In short the average number of miles driven is around 14,000, the average fuel economy is around 23, and the average road tax is around $.38 per gallon, if you do the math that is right around $200.


2) The current EVs today will not require a battery replacement and the battery technology being implemented for tomorrows EVs (and already on some today) results in a battery with even significantly longer lifespans. Although there are cases where batteries have failed or worn out on the average the life of the battery exceeds the usable life of the car. With the upcoming batteries (LFP is one technology) the batteries will have a second life after the car no longer functions, this second life can be fixed site storage or other such uses (I myself will be buying used LFPs to build a battery bank for my zero turn). In fact even today used EV batteries are in very high demand as they have significant use after the vehicle is no longer on the road. The first mass market Tesla's are now 15 years old and they have not required mass battery replacement, the average lifespan of any vehicle is 12 years. I remind you, those were first gen batteries and there has been 15 years of development since then. I also point out that batteries generally just lose capacity, a straight up failure is more rare, and in that case it will make a significant secondary used market of very affordable cars but with limited ranges, this actually benifits the lower income as the vehicle has a very well known and easily understood reduction in value rather than some sudden surprise repair that completely removes the vehicles utility (aka transmission or engine failure)

3) Lithium recycling is a hot subject right now. At the end of the day lithium batteries are recycled now, today. In truth EV batteries are only a small portion of the total amount of batteries and due to the large size and multitudes in similar configurations they are the MOST likely to be recycled out of any batteries. Think of cell phones, laptops, etc. Those come in hundreds of thousands of different configurations and each requires a specialized process that will only recover a small quantity of materials. Meanwhile EV batters will only have a few dozen, maybe hundred, configurations and allow for the recovery of large amounts of minerals.

4) This is fear mongering. If EVERY vehicle switched to EVs we would need at MOST a 50% increase in generating capacity. In truth with a smart grid and off-peak charging we could cover everyone using EVs today. You can look into the total miles driven in the US, the average efficiency of EVs, and the total power generation of the US if you question this. After that look into peak vs off peak power swings, etc.

 

The issue with your question is that those are well documented and easily answered concerns. It doesn’t take more than five minutes of research to find out that there are many ways states are taxing EVs to offset fuel taxes, that EV batteries outlast the usable vehicle life in most cases, that efficient battery recycling processes are being pioneered and standard reuse practices abound and that the electric generation/distribution is capable of providing the required power and capable of being grown in conjunction with a slow increase in EV ownership.

 

Thanks guys I just wasn't; in the mood to go into long explanations. That's why i summarized.

 

Can you share a link to towing information? I’ve only seen one EV towing review and it did horrible.

 

No but I can share my experience over about 3000 miles of towing and compare it directly to three other ICE trucks I used during the same time period. The only thing horrible is the range, everything else is near perfection. I’d take my Rivian back in a heartbeat if it could tow 250+ miles rather than 125 miles. Absolutely crushes the HD diesel I use now.

 

So we know that a Rivian can't compare to payload, tow capacity or range but I am curious to what makes it crush a modern HD?

 

As far as mileage goes I’ve seen “free charging” multiple times around TW. Who is really paying?

 

You had me until that average lifespan of 12 years... so not true... The average age of vehicles in the US is 12.5 years which if you follow a bell curve means there are many vehicles over that age. I myself tend to keep vehicles about 12-15 years and sell them with plenty of life to go. My Ford Ranger was 20 years old when I sold it and she still runs strong now putting her at a ripe old 25 years old.

Hell the Gen 1 Taco forum is filled with very old trucks (albeit Toyota is a bit of a ringer)

I myself don't mind EVs at all, love the Model S and Lightning with the house generator but I can't imagine both of my vehicles being EV especially after going through something like Hurricane Sandy where we didn't have power for 2 weeks.

 

Free charging is not free is in no cost, it is free as in free to the consumer.

Ultimately businesses put them in to draw consumers. As the cost of electricity is relatively low (and putting in a charger is WAY WAY WAY cheaper than putting in gas tanks and pumps) it can be made free to the consumer with minimal cost to the business. This is just a marketing cost to the business that chooses to do so, no different than BOGO, coupons, or taking an add out in the paper.

I think folks hear this and believe it is a government subsidy, its not.

 

What exactly does 12.5 year lifespan mean though, is that when they are crushed? Sold to Mexico? Left in a junkyard? I have 3 vehicles over 12 years, all combined they dont even average 5000 miles a year.. They were all effectively retired to other uses..

So my 35 year old Jeep is skewing that average yet hasnt even been driven 1000 miles in 20 years..

 

I'm not sure you are understanding what "average" means. I'm also pretty sure you missed the point of that entirely, I said old batteries are already lasting LONGER than average vehicle life, and their lifespan is only getting even longer than that

Yes, you may keep yours longer, great. And with care batteries last longer too. Again, straight failure isn't usually the issue, remaining capacity is. Slow charge, avoid rapid charging when hot or cold, etc will all serve to extend battery life. No different really than why folks argue they change the oil every 5,000 miles instead of 10,000.

 

Show me your statistical source for this "average" of 12 years. Do you know most of our old cars wind up in Mexico and go on for another 5-10 years? Even a POS Ford will last longer than 12 years so yes I question your data.

My point is if you are pulling made up facts for your argument then you've lost me. Use real info as I'm not an EV hater but don't try to fleece me. I'm probably first in line for that EV Taco but I know exactly how batteries work and finicky they can be.

 

You literally just said that the average lifespan was 12.5 years. Where did YOU get that number from then? Why don't you just use THAT.

"most of our old cars end up in mexico"
Yeah, now YOU need to provide a source for that.

 

Clearly you can't read. I said "average age of vehicles in the US is 12.5 years" sourced from https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a43903366/average-car-age-12-years/

If the average age of people in the US is 38.1 years old does that mean our average lifespan is 38???

As for Mexico I study the market and perhaps "most" was an exaggeration

Holy crap insurance agencies have strange statistics found this one

How long do cars last on average?

about eight years

According to a report from Consumer Reports, the common lifespan of a car is still estimated to be about eight years or 150,000 miles. Of course, the results of this report should be considered as the average lifespan overall, and not necessarily what you can expect from your car.

Who's making these cars that last 3 years to offset all the Toyotas and Hondas in the world? Hell even F150s are like cockroaches and last forever.

 

Dude I said AGE where do you guys keep putting lifespan into my comment???

 

I think people look at it synonymously as it doesn't really change the argument. My point is there a lot of non-use old cars that skew the averages.