Electric vs Gas Cost

I think it does because average age and lifespan are two totally different ideas and if your EV Battery never needs to be replaced in that your car lasts 15 years so your battery lasts 15 then battery life has no impact but if your cars last 20 years and you need to spend $20k on a new battery in 15 then you've just shortened the life of the car by 5 years as at that point it's a write off.

Who here hasn't had a cell phone or any other battery powered device. Is the battery the same new vs. 15 years old? My cell phone can't last 5 years without the battery life sucking (yes it works still) but battery life goes down.

Has your gas vehicle range gone down after 12 years of use?

 

because you never made an argument to dilenate the two.

But yet again, Teslas are over 15 and not suffering widespread failure. You keep trying to hound on this one piece to try and avoid the POINT. You are not likely to suffer batter failure during the LIFESPAN of the vehicle.

 

Typically businesses that are using free charging to attract customers. On road trips I'll look for hotels with free charging. The actual cost to the business depends on their electrical rate and how long the customer stays connected. Hotels will be the worst case scenario because people tend to fully charge up, so between $3 to $5. As for the chargers outside stores I never use them and seldom see them being used because level 2 charging isn't worth the effort for 30 minutes to an hours worth of charge.

 

Didn't think I had to. The POINT is EVs aren't ready for prime time for everyone. Battery density is too low, charge time too slow, infrastructure not ready. Now when these new solid state batteries hit, then you're talking.

 

So the average age of my personal fleet is 16.5 years, this is skewed because I own more much older vehicles than new, the new vehicles are used as dailys.

Has my gas mileage gone down after 12 years of use? Yes actually and that vehicle just completed a brand new engine rebuild and is now back to normal mpg.

 

Clearly reading isn't your strong point because I think we're arguing that we agree.

 

Dude you need to change your oil more often and maintain these. Unless they lose compression or wear down the cams you shouldn't lose mpg. I've never lost mpg albeit I never had good mpg to begin with Ranger was getting 17mpg from the day I had her to the day she found a new owner.

 

Exactly typical

You came here claiming to just be looking for information, playing as an honest person just looking for information. When presented that information you found a reason you didn't have to listen and then eventually just soapboxed your viewpoint on EVs.

And this is exactly the reason that stephen responded so curtly, we can all see it coming when someone comes in and just repeats the memes from facebook. A few of us gave you the benefit of the doubt but just like all the others we have seen you would rather throw your integrity away than listen to something that disagrees with your viewpoint.

 

Completely irrelevant to the reason why and doesn't change the the fact that you can lose mpg over time. It's scientifically proven that ICE engines lose efficiency over time. period.

 

then I'm still trying to figure out why you decided to argue against my point in the first place....

great gaslighting

 

cell phone batteries and ev car batteries may share the same basic technology, but they’re managed entirely differently. This isn’t a good comparison as cell phone batteries are down right abused compared to the pampered ones in an ev.

 

Listen I get it, you drink the kool-aid EVs are the future and they last forever. They run on pixie dust and unicorn farts so let's all celebrate and burn down some more forest.

My view, I want one ICE and EV in my stable. I'll keep the Taco forever if need be.

 

I'm actually in the Diesel camp and maybe a little in the hybrid camp. I think Hybrids are a more realistic future than EV's but keep making false assumptions.

 

Pampered yes but the range is also Tesla building in 20% buffer that is never used so as the battery "ages" it seems to have not lost as much. Is Kia doing this? GM? Tesla does things really well and uses the old style cells which are very reliable and actually different than the pouch lithium cells in cell phones.

LOL sure I'm the enemy I came in looking at the cost ICE vs EV and those seemed way off (falsely in favor of ICE) but your thing I hate when people are so headlong into a topic they can't see the real picture.

I just hate seeing people arguing with false statistics. Give us real info

Both sides come up with complete BS "facts" and I can't stand that there isn't a middle ground anymore.

I like hybrids too but something about using double the resource isn't great either. I'd rather own a hybrid lot where my daily local commuter is an EV and my family hauler is an ICE for those trips upstate or to florida.

BTW I'd even have the old GM EV1 with lead acid batteries. Infinitely recyclable and works fine for daily commutes. Charge $30k for a basic easy EV people can afford.

 

I can't believe someone resurrected this shit show of a thread. 17 pages ago I made a comment about boomers and luddites fighting the future and 17 pages later it's still the same arguments and nobody has said anything new.

 

The absolute ease of towing. My Rivian had double the horsepower and the same torque as my 1-ton diesel and weighs nearly as much. It’s just as stable towing heavy loads and always is in the powerband. No downshifting, no waiting for a turbo to spool up, nothing but instant always available power and torque.

 

Fair enough all valid and I can understand, I see there's a new rivian thats like 1200hp and 1200trq.

 

When is the last time you fully charged your cell phone? When is the last time you deeply discharged your cell phone? When is the last time you used a 20w fast charger on your phone? All these shorten battery life, especially the charging it full daily, which you don't do with an EV. (Unless you have a specific type of lower energy density battery pack that is designed to do so, aka Tesla LPF). You only charge an EV to 80-90% for regular use, full charging or deep discharging is reserved for long trips when the range capacity is needed. I'm guilty of abusing my phone battery daily with the things mentioned earlier (like most of us). I've never charged the Tesla past 90% or had it deeply discharged, and only used fast charging a few times over the course of nearly a year of ownership. So it is easy to see why the cell phone battery will not age as well as the modern EV battery. I say modern, because many early EVs lacked advanced battery management and were charged to full every day, which predictably degraded the battery noticeably over time. Those early EVs like the Leaf helped create this narrative/concern that the battery life will be a problem, even though it is now largely solved with advanced battery management.

There is over a decade of battery data available on the Tesla S, and the technology continues to improve.
https://insideevs.com/news/429818/tesla-model-s-x-battery-capacity-degradation/

Regarding a buffer, I think you are confusing gross battery capacity vs net battery capacity. I think you need to cite the 20% number though, manufactures are not going to leave that much extra range on the table.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36051980/evs-explained-battery-capacity-gross-versus-net/

 

Li-Po (Phones), 300-500 cycles to drop to <80% capacity.
Lithium NMC (Nickle Manganese Cobalt, most EVs), 2000-2500 cycles to drop to <80% capacity.
Lithium LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate, some tesla and many future EVs) is 3500-4000 cycles to drop to <80% capacity.

Battery management as crash speaks about pushes that number to the higher end while fast charging, charging hot or cold, and charging regularly to 100% push it to the lower end.

Assuming the average number of miles driven per year (~14,000) and a range of 240 miles an EV will see just under 60 "cycles" per year. At that rate it would take 33 years to reach 2000 cycles of the battery. That is 33 years to drop to 80% of original capacity.

 

Hmm 33 years. Not enough for the anti EV crowd.