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Discussion in 'Garage / Workshop' started by six5crèéd, Jun 5, 2020.

  1. Feb 21, 2024 at 6:24 AM
    cory02taco

    cory02taco Well-Known Member

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    Good call. The fuses look like 35a (based on the tiny bit I could see) which is too much for either wire size you mentioned under normal conditions, there are exceptions for non-continuous motor starting loads that allow bigger breakers than you would think on smaller wire than you would think, but without the code book in front of me I couldn’t tell you exact fuse sizing for #12 UF, which is what this kind of looks like to me.
     
  2. Feb 21, 2024 at 6:31 AM
    Cwopinger

    Cwopinger Random guy who shows up in your threads

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    Good morning guys, have a good Wednesday
     
  3. Feb 21, 2024 at 6:33 AM
    cory02taco

    cory02taco Well-Known Member

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    In a sub panel the neutral (grounded conductor) and ground (grounding conductor) should be separated. The neutral returns the unbalanced load to the neutral bar(transformer), and the ground provides a direct path to ground. A simplified way to think of it is a neutral can carry current, a ground shouldn’t, but if it does it’s to trip the overcurrent device, whether it’s a breaker or pops a fuse. They are only supposed to be connected at a main panel(first means of disconnect), so that a parallel path for current is not formed throughout the system between ground and neutral.
     
  4. Feb 21, 2024 at 6:35 AM
    RustyGreen

    RustyGreen A breaker point guy in a Bluetooth world

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    Short answer:
    Neutral-to-ground bond is needed to properly operate the circuit breakers.

    Long answer cut -n- paste:
    Over Current Protection Devices (OCPD) such as circuit breakers and fuses actually require a short and intense INCREASE in electrical current (a short) in order to detect the fault and cut the circuit off. Without a sharp and drastic increase in electrical flow, a fault could go on without triggering a circuit breaker to stop the flow. This actually occurs quite often and can be measured easily by checking the amount of current flowing on your ground conductor. It should be less than 1-amp in most cases. If the current flowing on a grounded conductor is higher than an amp, and you are not in a high-voltage (600V+) environment, it typically indicates an erroneous neutral-to-ground bond somewhere in the system.

    To visualize the reason why the neutral-to-ground bond is required, you must consider the entire electrical circuit from a 120-volt outlet all the way back to the utility transformer hanging out on the pole:

    • In a properly designed circuit, if a fault were to occur on the 120-volt outlet between the hot-wire and the ground, the current will flow through ground wire back to the main panel, where it will move to the neutral wire via the neutral-to-ground bond, up to the utility transformer, back down the hot wire to the circuit breaker, tripping the breaker.
    • In a faulty designed circuit, if a fault were to occur on the 120-volt outlet between the hot-wire and the ground, the current will flow through ground wire back to the main panel, where because it does not have a neutral-to-ground bond, the current will be forced through the ground rod, into and across the earth, and up the utility ground rod and into the utility transformer, back down the hot wire to the circuit breaker. The resistance of the earth is almost always to great to allow sufficient current flow to trip the breaker, and you end up with a steady-state ground fault, that never trips the breaker, and this is a hazardous situation indeed. You cannot use the earth as a conductor.
    Another issue that can occur, is that multiple (and illegal) neutral-to-ground bonds can exist in the system (only one bond is allowed in the main panel). When this occurs, both the ground and the neutral become current-carrying conductors, which effectively means that you have two (2) neutral wires running in parallel. This divides the current and places electrical energy on to the chassis of all metallic objects within the system.
     
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  5. Feb 21, 2024 at 6:35 AM
    six5crèéd

    six5crèéd [OP] Be the light

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    Thanks for the explanation :thumbsup:
     
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  6. Feb 21, 2024 at 6:47 AM
    JustAddMud

    JustAddMud Professional Grease Monkey

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    Yes


    -J
     
  7. Feb 21, 2024 at 6:48 AM
    six5crèéd

    six5crèéd [OP] Be the light

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    That sounds like @Hobbs reading. Whatchew think @StayinStock :rolleyes:
     
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  8. Feb 21, 2024 at 6:54 AM
    wilcam47

    wilcam47 Keep on keeping on!

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    https://homearise.com/what-neutral-wire/
     
  9. Feb 21, 2024 at 6:56 AM
    JustAddMud

    JustAddMud Professional Grease Monkey

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    I remember stumbling across a neat graphic that showed the difference between Ground and Neutral but I cant find it quickly and I dont want to misquote it. It showed a powerline on the street going through a transformer and the path of power into the house, to the appliance and back to the panel and how it returned to the powerline/transformer. Shame really, it was a nice graphic. The video depicts an accurate representation of the differences though. I had to use CC since these speakers don't work on this computer so I didn't hear the narration.

    -J
     
  10. Feb 21, 2024 at 7:11 AM
    StayinStock

    StayinStock Set it and forget it

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    Thats way out of my jurisdiction, I'm still amazed that I change my own mower oil. :anonymous:
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2024
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  11. Feb 21, 2024 at 7:17 AM
    six5crèéd

    six5crèéd [OP] Be the light

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    Cool use of scraps.

    upload_2024-2-21_10-17-7.jpg
     
  12. Feb 21, 2024 at 7:28 AM
    Fargo Taco

    Fargo Taco Well-Known Member

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    Lomax tonneau cover, N-Fab Podium steps, bed mat
    Finally done.

    Red is new or changed room numbers, blue is existing, unchanged numbers.

    20240221_092546.jpg
     
  13. Feb 21, 2024 at 7:29 AM
    phillstill

    phillstill Long hair don't care

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    Good morning Gents!!!!
    0-60 in 3.5 seconds just isn’t the same without a nasty sounding V8 pushing it.

    IMG_5657.jpg
     
  14. Feb 21, 2024 at 9:12 AM
    PzTank

    PzTank Stuck in the Well

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    Can it do 60-0 in 3.5 seconds :rofl:
     
  15. Feb 21, 2024 at 9:22 AM
    phillstill

    phillstill Long hair don't care

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    It’s closer 4.5-5 seconds I’d say. 3.5 is what google told me for this particular model. :D
     
  16. Feb 21, 2024 at 9:45 AM
    Fargo Taco

    Fargo Taco Well-Known Member

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    Aaaaaand I was just informed they're changing the floorplans. :rofl:
     
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  17. Feb 21, 2024 at 9:46 AM
    Kilo Charlie

    Kilo Charlie I have lost my way

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    As long as it's not the floor numbers you should be ok
     
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  18. Feb 21, 2024 at 9:48 AM
    six5crèéd

    six5crèéd [OP] Be the light

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    :rimshot::rofl:
     
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  19. Feb 21, 2024 at 9:48 AM
    six5crèéd

    six5crèéd [OP] Be the light

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    :facepalm:
     
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  20. Feb 21, 2024 at 9:52 AM
    Fargo Taco

    Fargo Taco Well-Known Member

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    I will not be ok.

    If they make any changes, I'll have to redo them. Now that I have a basis figured out, adjustments aren't usually too bad to incorporate.

    This is the (admittedly horrible but no one else could come up with anything better) path I used for numbering the other building that's breaking ground soon.

    20240221_114919.jpg

    Once that was done, changes just fall into place.
     
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