New HF Road shock edge lights

I would like to provide some additional clarification. Prior to our transition to Toluca, Mexico we advertised 65% U.S. content. For a business to claim "Made In America" the commodity needs a minimum of 99% material/labor which as you know is virtually impossible especially with electronics. To more directly answer your question nothing changed in regards to our material specs outside of moving manufacturing to a tier 1 OE plant which very few lighting manufacturers can claim. If you want the details of what a tier 1 means we are happy to share. With the exception of hardware every single aspect of our lights are proprietary from our PCB/PCBA (Southern California) and die casting/injection molding which takes place in Taiwan and Wisconsin.

I'm sorry, but your statement about Bestop and Kinderhook (private equity firm) are inaccurate and deserve clarification. Our portfolio includes the obvious BD, sPOD plus PRP, Status, Speed Strap, Bull Ring, Aluminess, and MGP Caliper Covers all who manufacture the majority of their products in-house between Temecula and Chula Vista. Magna International (largest tier 1 automotive manufacturing in Northern America) also owning 49% means we gain the same manufacturing/assembly standards used to build vehicles such as the Tacoma and Tundra. If you aren't aware Magna makes parts for every automotive manufacturer.

If you want a tour of any of the facilities including Toluca feel free to reach out directly.

 

Notice how they left out where the stuff is actually manufactured? as in where are the housings cast, molded, machined, where are the drivers, boards, LEDs, and other components built, "Assembly" in terms of manufacturing and advertising doesn't mean much. For example, Dewalt has been "assembling" tools in the USA for a while, all that happens stateside is batteries and tools are stuffed into plastic bags, then into a cardboard box with a massive red, white, and blue "ASSEMBLED IN THE U.S.A using globally sourced components" logo, which is then taped up and shipped to retailers. The tools are still manufactured in china or other overseas nations.

Budget isn't the issue here. Apparently reading isn't your strength. This whole time I have been comparing the LP4 to the 4 LED roadshock at harbor freight, IIDK what numbers you are looking at from a lumens perspective to get 11,225 and 750, but the LP4 advertises 8,750 total with 1,700 of that 8,750 being peripheral lighting, the roadshock advertises 5,400 lumens total, with no breakdown of what is provided by the 4 forward LEDs and what is provided by the peripheral LEDs. based on those advertised numbers alone, the BD LP4 provides 1.62x the light as the harbor freight option. That is assuming that the advertised numbers are accurate, which they likely aren't for either brand, the lumen rating of an LED doesn't mean much, what actually matters to the human eye are the real world numbers for "out the front" lumens, Lux, Candela, CCT, and CRI.

And yes you are correct, for auxillary lighting on a tractor that I am not using to earn a living, dropping $1,000 on lights would be incredibly stupid. I need something that provides good light, (cct, cri, and visibility to vehicles are the main criteria), reliably under normal use conditions, being cheap to replace in the event of damage from something going wrong while using the tractor is just an added bonus. also, the harbor freight light included a black and an amber lens cover which would add another $42 to the cost of the LP4 before tax and shipping, bringing the prices to $100 vs $469.

 

I know your comment wasn't directed at Baja Designs. If it's alright with you we would like to take some time to clarify our position. We understand our performance, craftmanship and price point are not for everyone. While we internally wish we could manufacture cheaper solutions without knowingly sacrificing elements we aren't comfortable with, we haven't figure out how. That said, our main vision when chiming in on these types of discussions is to make sure enthusiasts understand the difference especially when HR claims "comparable to Baja Designs part number xx-xxx" and the video tagline of "as good as the best, but a whole lot less". These lights are far from being comparable and it's easy to get caught in the marketing material especially with LEDs. An example would be enthusiasts not understanding name brand LED manufacturers sell LEDs that don't fall within their defined chromaticity bins for pennies to private labeled solutions such as this compared to what name brands select such as (BD, KC, Rigid, VisionX).

 

Damn, Bill got the Boss invloved.

OK, so what percent of the LP4 is US content? and what assembly steps take place in Toluca, Mexico?

Pricing for your lights compares to J.W. Speaker, but a lot of their lights are made in the USA and have all the same accolades of hard use in serious conditions that Baja Designs claims.

I am confused as to what I got wrong about Kinderhook's investment in Bestop and the subsequent acquisition of Baja Designs? Magna International sold bestop to Kinderhook with the goal of becoming the largest supplier of aftermarket jeep products. PE firms do not typically prioritize product quality and innovation over profits, but rather driving up company valuation to raise stock prices or prepare for an IPO and divest, Boeing is a pretty solid example at the moment.

 

Oops, you got me. I stupidly referenced the LP6, considering thats what the entire thread was based upon, and in my stupor, I missed a zero on the HF knockoff. The point still stands; a price difference is justified by a significant difference in performance between the two. But you can continue comparing apples to oranges, it doesn't really matter which models you're comparing, you won't be convinced there's any discernable difference.

You should really take them up on their offer to let you tour their facilities since you're so genuinely interested in the manufacturing process. It really sounds like they have a lot to hide and you could really shine a light on their marketing scams.

 

The LP Series contains 50% US content. In regards to the LP Series and Toluca operation we laser and powder coat the LP Series brackets in-house. Complete assembly also takes place from each individual component to the finished product. This includes assembling power cords, joining thermal gap pads to cast housings, installing circuit boards, reflectors, o-rings, lenses, amperage load testing, and final packaging.

This specific statement is incorrect "your lights definitely come from overseas." and you looping Kinderhook into the "PE firms do not typically prioritize product quality and innovation over profits". While we are a "for profit" business I have worked for Baja Designs since 2011 when the company was independently owned, mentored by the founder(s), wass apart of the first acquisition (2016), took over as CEO in 2019 and have now stepped into a role overseeing 8 of 11 divisions we have in Southern California. The performance, quality, and craftmanship of Baja Designs are better than ever and a large portion of that is because of the tier one manufacturing element which wouldn't have been possible without Bestop, Kinderhook and Magna.

In regards to your J.W. Speaker comparison I'll go out on a limb and say there isn't a single OHV solution by J.W. that can hold a candle to our OHV solutions regardless if the application is two or four wheels. I've ridden, driven and raced with virtually every light on the market.

Trent Kirby

 

IDK Trent, the J.W. speaker stuff has worked pretty good in the HMMWVs for a while now.

I'm not saying There is no difference between the harbor freight junk and your lights, I am just questioning wheather there is almost 5x the value in your product especially for most people's use cases.

You say that I am wrong to assume they are made in china, but you basically just spelled out that ttlhe board, driver, and LED assembly is manufactured elsewhere (my money is on china) and then all components are assembled and tested in mexico.

I believe you probably put out a great product. Albeit overhyped and overpriced.

I would think that you should make it a point to share the info you have shared here with your sales staff and encourage transparency. The initial response I got seemed more like a deflection and marketing bs which there is plenty of on the internet as it is. I am not knocking Bill either, he is doing a fine job. Had I received the response above when I first asked about the LP4, I would have seen the value. But regurgitating marketing language does pretty much the opposite.

Im glad the acquisition has gone so well for you and Baja Designs.

 

I don't think I could afford the plane ticket. The lights being out of my budget and all. Would you like to go in my place and produce a high quality documentary up to the standards of your artistic vision?

 

Sure as a DOT option the J.W. stuff works well in the HMMWVs. There's also a reason those who drive HMMWVs at night use Baja Designs white and infrared solutions.

Yes, and it's on the Baja Designs sales and marketing teams to show enthusiasts the 5x value. If we can't then that's on us.

That is why I chose to jump in. Everything I have shared has been discussed company wide. We are very much a "blame the process, not the employee" type of organization and view the back and forth as a perfect training/educational opportunity for our entire team. Thank you for highlighting this.

No, I specifically called out Southern California for the PCB and PCBA. To more clearly answer your question, yes, the drivers and LEDs come from Taiwan just like the Made in USA company you speak so highly of. If you are aware of an electronics company within a reasonable price point who uses Made in the USA drivers, LEDs, resistors, capacitors, etc. please share. To my knowledge there isn't.

Trent Kirby

 

Shit, i missed that in your original reply, no im fully aware all the electronics components in the us come from overseas, not a big deal.

Now the million dollar question is, if I email Bill to get set up with some lights, is he going to charge me double for my having been an asshole?

 

i believe you're mistaken there. BD specifically uses Cree led's in most designs, which are designed and manufactured within USA borders. it's the only led producer that maintains a production facility in the US.

though there really is no better place to source driver chips, capacitors, or resistors than china/japan, due to a number of production, economic, and ecological reasons, as many processes used for product creation are highly caustic and fall outside acceptable limits that the US EPA allows, but chinese laws and EPA limitations better allow for.

i'd also like to correct you on this as well-- you specifically do know how to make a cheaper product--any business person does. it's in the characteristic business triangle of "good/cheap/fast" that all basic business degree college students learn.

there's also plenty of historical examples of a singular brand containing multiple product lines to reach multiple demographics in more than one price point, with drastic differences in quality between each product line. of course, many brands have also historically had perception difficulties with the public understanding the quality differences in price points, and how the lowest-quality product doesn't inherently mean the highest quality product is not only the same product with a larger overall margin with the same internals. i think the more proper phrasing here is that "baja designs is unwilling to produce a lower quality product".

and that's perfectly fine. i, and many others, like and respect the baja designs name and it's inherent quality. many, many years ago, i believe paul mcain--now ceo of diode dynamics, worked at baja designs. i had many memorable conversations about BD's inherent quality with him on the now-defunct hidplanet.com. many of those conversations delved far deeper into the technical attributes than the product pages ever indicate, and has earned my respect with the companies unwavering decision to create a high quality product that doesn't cut corners.

but that said, my 'internet' respect and where my dollar goes are where things start to fall apart. i haven't been blessed by a rich relative. i buy Aldi groceries because name brand variants are far too expensive otherwise. i'm aware of how aldi cuts corners on their grocery items, no different than how any other company cuts corners. the difference is that i'm still here to have this discussion because of those cut corners i'm knowingly cutting on my groceries. without cutting those corners, and buying the quality name-brand products, i'd be broke, homeless, hungry, and lack an internet connection to even have this discussion.

to buy a single bd product, i'm budgeting and planning for months/years--look back in your records to when paul mccain left the company, i've had an interest/purpose to buying your lights since then. but then i'm left questioning, "do i really need the utmost of performance?" i'm not likely to ever be within 1,000 miles of any baja race. i've never been further south, or west, than colorado, and spend most of my time in and around chicago, which doesn't at all resemble an area that offroad lights can be even partly utilized some of the time.

at some point, i've got to be honest with myself that despite all the uncompromising qualities of bd lights, what do i really need from an offroad light? does an uncompromisingly-built $500+ offroad light honestly perform significantly and usably better in my flat, heavily-populated, metropolitan area, than any off-brand $100 light? i don't believe it does. that doesn't mean that bd doesn't have a place in the market, but that it doesn't have a place in my market. the only real reason anyone in my market perceivably purchases a light at the caliber of bd or similar is only going to be for the street cred, because there's definitely not a usefulness to that kind of performance.

 

Tested all three lights.
Baja design lp6 pro
Harbor Freight roadshock edge 6 led
Knock off “lp6”

below is a blind test for anyone who is interested. Place your bet on which one is which and I will reveal the result in a YouTube video I am posting next week. Stay tuned.
(Camera setting stayed consistent across the board, including shutter speed, aperture, iso and color balance)



Cheers!

 

This thread lacks some serious respect. @Baja Designs has gone impressively above and beyond to provide the requested info, involving some heavy hitters from the brand.

The pictures you post have little value for output intensity. Show me your NIST traceable certified LED calibration certificate tool for measuring output in comparing the output values. Every semi-lighting-professional of course can do this. Where are the NIST compatible comparison readings between the sources?

 

Many people have told me Diode Dynamics is the best.

That being said,
-why not try something else cheaper first, see if you like it. If it sucks, return it.

Second, not everyone right this moment has $700+ to spend on lights they will use a small percentage of the time.
Also, isn't any light better than no light? Especially if it's in non-traffic, it may not matter as much.

And, if you put something cheap, you've already taken care of the hardest part which is wiring, mounting, button.
That way, it's all ready for later on down the road if you put a better light. It can go in.

HF is something you can get quickly at any store domestic.

Even the nice big Auxbeams at $300 starts to become unjustified at that point to me. Above a certain price I'd expect good performance, not subpar. And for that big of a hit, why bother doing it wrong.
$150 or under for both is less of a hit.

Also, certain lights could theoretically be used to let another person know "hey dumbfuck turn off your blinding highbeams"
which, the stock high beam toggle doesn't really do.
Maybe they will get the message quickly.

is the HFT $150 for both? Then maybe.
$150 each? Probably not.
Is it as good as any name brand like BD, DD, etc.? Obviously not.

If you were testing it, unscientifically, you could put them on your bumper and possibly temporarily power it up with a NOCOboost at night and see how it looks.

 

Oh boy, not sure what I said triggered the “lack of respect” button, and while most really just from a lighting enthusiast’s passion to find out what is the output difference in terms of pattern and lux reading (even if the measuring device isn’t NIST certified, the difference will still be meaningful since they are all done by the same device). Whether the “absolute value” of the output is measured by a calibrated meter from one light is somewhat not important to me.

 

nice. i'll play!

the first thing that surprises me is the color of all 3. i know bd specifically uses 5000k tightly-binned led's, but picture 2 and 3 really aren't all that far off in terms of color temp. generally cheaper led units use bluer and looser binning as it's a significant upfront cost savings.

so that said, picture 1 appears to be the knockoff. though it also appears to be a spot-only lens arrangement, where the others are combo spot/width-floods on the central optic package. it appears to be a typical chinese light, where they nailed the exterior aesthetics, but parts-binned the interior components enough that it works, but only barely.

picture 2 appears to be the genuine baja designs. the output pattern is extremely smooth and useable with the flow between different led segments smoother than all the other variations, and the obvious, the output is higher than all others due to the more premium components, drive current, and thermal monitoring systems used, the 'detail' stuff that makes all the difference in a $700 light that can be relied upon when you're at the edge of the globe and need a light to 'just work'.

picture 3 appears to be the harbor freight light. like the first picture, each led segment is clearly identifiable, as if the optics were simply grabbed off the parts bin, but the chips and color appear to be of higher quality than the knockoff, as well as at least a minimal effort paid attention to light distribution without burning through extreme engineer dollars to perfect it.

all that said, i'm gonna laugh if hf is #1, and the knockoff is #3!

 

Great guess! I am not going to ruin the fun for others yet but great reasoning as well.

for what it’s worth, below is the stock low high and diode dynamics ss3 pro fog collage.

 

At minimum I’d recommend an LED rated meter. Absolute value readings only work when all the light sources are the same color, which they won’t be. Baja is going to have a lower color temp at 5000k than the other lights which is going to make your readings less accurate in absolute value. If you use an incandescent meter optimized for 3200k the lower color temps will be favored in the measurements. If you use an LED meter it is optimized for 6000k and the readings will be more accurate overall, but as you move away from 6000k the readings do become slightly less accurate. I wouldn’t be surprised if the HF light is 7000k+ with very loose cheap emitter binning. See the 2nd half of post #5488 demonstrating the differences in meter readings with light source spectrums. A meter optimized for 6000k is going to work significantly better at accurately measuring light sources from 5000k-7000k than one optimized for 3200k.

When measuring be sure to measure stable output. LEDs reduce in output as they heat up. It’s not uncommon for inexpensive lights to put out high initial numbers but then quickly drop off due to poor thermal management design. Baja would say the LP6 is designed to have some cooling airflow across it I believe, so it will take a minor hit in stable static output tests but the test will be consistent across products and better than an initial output reading which can very significantly from stable usable output.

 

My Asian truck was not built in Asia. Should I be mad?. freakin parts from all over the place. but it does what it's supposed to do.

the same could be said for the lights... Buy the cheap light's or the high dollar. it's your monies, use it on what you want.

 

Alright. Just got back from a field test. Here’s another teaser for whom wants to take a guess blindly of which one is which. This time I added in another light, Auxbeam 5inch xpro (biggest Auxbeam has to offer with side shooting)


Cheers!