PennSilverTaco's HVAC BS MegaThread!

Remaining bit of “copper pasta” from my boss’s ‘95 Carrier…

 

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My friend Jeff recently bought a condo, like maybe six months ago...? There are five or six condos in an old brick building that used to be a factory or something. The building was completed gutted and redone in 2009, so it's as if these condos are about fifteen years old. Jeff's condo is probably a thousand square feet, maybe a little more, with 2 bedrooms and 1 bathroom. It has the washer and dryer in the unit, and it does not have a dishwasher, but there is plenty of room to install one. It also has central air in all units, and my friend's condo is one of at least four that have the original Gibson (NORDYNE) units installed back in 2009. The building is all electric, utilizing heat pumps. Jeff's heat pump is a 2-ton Gibson, as stated above. Recently, the Gibson stopped blowing cold; Jeff called out a well-known local company called Moyer, who told him that he needed a new system, and it would cost about THIRTY GRAND (US$30,000)!

Luckily, he got a second opinion, and the Gibson only needed a $1,500 repair. It now works fine.

Replacing a heat pump is not cheap, but it should not cost thirty grand to replace an existing system in a residence that already has central air!

In 2021, my old boss and her husband spent twenty grand installing a 4-ton Bryant heat pump in their house that was built in 1976 and did not have central air. The house does have oil baseboard heat, and to offset the cost of heating oil, I recommended that they go with a heat pump instead of a straight-cool unit. The $20,000 including the cost of installing ductwork.

No way in hell it costs $30,000 to replace a 2-ton heat pump in a condo that already has central air! For a cheapo system like a Goodman or another Gibson, I would say like $5,000-$7,000 for the complete system. For a Carrier, Trane, or Lennox I would say $8,000-$10,000. Maybe $12,000 at most for a top-of-the-line system.

 

@Lt. Dangle

I don't think we knew each other yet when I posted pictures of the oversized biohazard that kept my grandma's house warm for 75 years...

The house is a 3-bedroom brick rancher in New Jersey, built in 1947. My grandparents bought the house in like 1975 and my grandma still lives there. The house has been extensively renovated, the garage was turned into a living room, and central air was added in 1987. However, the original Thatcher oil boiler remained, surviving a basement flood, and finally giving up the ghost in December 2022. When the house was built, there was no public gas, and my grandparents had propane installed for the stove, dryer, and water heater. There has been gas in the neighborhood for years, and my grandma opted to convert. They ran the gas line to the house and installed a gas boiler. The stove, dryer, and water heater are still propane because my grandma didn't feel like spending the extra money, but they could all easily be switched to natural gas.

I called the old Thatcher boiler a biohazard because it contains asbestos. The new boiler was installed in December 2022, I took the pictures during a visit in February 2023, and the old bastard is still sitting in the basement nearly two years later. The damn thing is too heavy to move in one piece, and due to the asbestos, it must be dismantled by professionals; I would chop the thing up myself and scrap it as a favor to my grandma, but I refuse to fuck around with asbestos!

 

$30K?

I'd call them back out and tell them you have a few questions. Then hand them the $1,500 repair bill.
And then tell them exactly what I think of them.

 

He probably could have had a new system for less than five grand, but it’s a moot point because the one he has works fine…

 

For 30k I will travel from where I am to wherever they are and do the job lol.

I can do 2-3 heat pump systems for that price lol. Trane stuff to boot.

30k is geothermal territory though, easy.

 

I will say that a $1500 repair is pushing it on a 15 year old heat pump though, depending on the nature of the repair. A 15 year old heat pump has done what it was born to do and at some point, you gotta cut it loose.

Spending 1.5k on a potential band aid is not what I'd advise as a contractor.

 

Why do you think they were trying to charge him $30K? That can’t be legal…

 

He just bought a condo and probably doesn’t have the cash for a whole new system yet. If it breaks again, I will advise him to replace…

 

@Lt. Dangle
@shakerhood
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@TnShooter

With regards to Jeff’s 2009 Gibson heat pump, I normally regard Nordyne/Nortek products as totally garbage. However, my friend @Gwyns04 has a house that was built in 1958 and did not originally have central air. It does have an oil-fired baseboard heating system. She bought the house in 2003 and had central A/C installed in 2005. The 2.5-ton Gibson straight-cool that was installed back in 2005 is still in operation today, and aside from one service call a few years ago, that unit has been absolutely trouble-free!

The service call was due to the unit not turning on, and the issue ended up being that a mouse had gotten into the service access panel and munched on the wiring.

Jeff’s 2009 Gibson is R410a, and Gwyn’s 2005 Gibson is R-22. Both have Copeland Scroll compressors, and I have never heard Jeff’s run, but Gwyn’s is incredibly quiet for being a 20-year old builder-grade unit!

If my first house ends up coming with a Nordyne/Nortek, that would be one thing, but I would never install that brand in my own house or recommend that anybody install it in theirs!

 

It's legal. I can charge whatever I want lol.

This reeks of an F off price. Basically throw out a crazy number to get a customer to go away. Either the job had issues, contractor is booked up, or the relationship was unfavorable for the guy giving the quote.

 

Why wouldn’t they quoted him like ten grand to put a new heat pump in then? I’ve never heard thirty grand…

 

They didn't want the job for whatever reason.

I am not above doing the same, although not to this degree, but I usually just tell people I am busy and they should get other quotes to be safe.

There are jobs where I don't trust the homeowner/business owner, job has excessive hurdles, or really any number of things that make it unwanted. Being busy is up there as well.

Quote 10k and you might get the job. Quote 30k and odds are against it. Imagine if someone did bite on that though...

 

With financing, a new system can be had for less out of pocket than a repair. But I get it.

Around here a 15 year old heat pump is about the end of the road, i'd assume it is similar in your area. If it runs, greta, but expensive repairs are generally not a great idea, mainly due to refrigerant switches and whatnot.

 

Also, why don't you like Rheem/Ruud?

 

I don't really care for some of the way the engineer their stuff. Really it is not the worst though. It's a mid level product IME.

Really just personal feelings based on working on them all for 25+ years.

 

My favorite was Carrier for a while, but now it's probable Trane/American Standard...

 

Mid 90's or so to mid 00's Carrier is hard to beat. Modern equipment I like Trane the most.

Opinion is based on ease of repair and reliability. I think Trane has always been up there for reliability, but the small Ac's of the 90's (XB's I think were the model) were terrors to work on in the electrical compartment, it was very small and hard to get a booster in there. That's why I give the edge to Carrier then.



It was hard even getting the refrigeration hoses on.

Trane greatly improved the design on the XE and were every bit the equal to a same generation Carrier. These were nice to work on and tough though:


I am a Trane dealer though, so take it with a grain of salt I guess.

I have worked for Trane, Bryant, Carrier, Janitrol, York, Mitsubishi, Comfort Maker, Lennox and Waterfurnace dealers. I may have forgotten some.

 

I'm just a home gamer that fixes his own stuff, but I appreciate York and Mitsubishi as far as repairs go. I went Trane this time around for my furnace though so we'll see how I like it.

 

Newer York straight-cool units are junk because they have microchannel coils…