The 395 and Owens Valley-Eastern Sierra Region

not experienced like you guys but I am open for some camping and exploring the areas you are talking about. Retired so veey flexible on dates

 

Took the advice of going 50-88-89. Glad I did and thanks to all. Did a side trip to a fire lookout off the 50, on the way back found this excellent spot to camp along Alder Creek.



Deep enough for a swim but couldn't get the girlfriend close enough to test the water temp.

 

Manage to get a few days out around the 395/120

 

Sonora Pass opens on Thursday, the 15th!

 

I live in the area. Down to explore some new stuff. I can show you some semi-secret hot springs.

 

I would definitely take you up on that!

 

Sounds great.

 

Proposed fee increases to several areas of the Inyo National Forest.
Personally I don't agree with this. The forest service is mismanaged and to ask that a place like Grandview costs $20/night is ridiculous. It's a nice place to camp but has no running water and only vault toilets.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/r05/inyo/ne...oposed-new-or-increased-recreation-fees-seven

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/5884dc4220904384a6fbdb7c3b32973c

 

Grandview is currently a "suggested" fee of $5. And now they want $20? What's hilarious is most of these sites are nothing more than glorified dust bowls. I'm guessing the money's not gonna do much for these places.

edit: "Recreation fees help provide quality recreation opportunities that meet the modern expectations of visitors and creates a more financially sustainable recreation program for future generations."

"modern expectations"? Most of these places are primitive. $20 added isn't gonna make the vault any bigger. Pretty sure increases are primarily to keep people from long term use.

 

As someone who doesn't (if I can help it) camp in "developed*" sites, it seems fine to me to charge for the developed sites. $20 also feels like "a lot" to me, but I think part of the reason for that is that I'm stuck in the past as far as prices go. I mean, a burrito at Chipotle costs $15+ now and (for me) is gone in 5 minutes. Minimum wage in LA (as I understand it) was just voted up to $30 per hour (!) ... which seems like a lot, but also isn't even enough money to live in CA on an annual basis. My teen daughter looks at $20 in the way I looked at $2-5 growing up. So, I dunno.

* I realize I might be using "developed" broadly here; what I mean is that I don't camp in places where other people camp at the same time, as opposed to dispersed/find-a-solitary-spot-possibly-with-a-pre-existing-fire-ring, which I vastly prefer.

One thing to remember is that the money doesn't necessarily need to be used at the place where it's collected/charged. Management of the entire Inyo NF has to happen with money from somewhere, and since a lot of the recreation is free (I've never paid for anything!), you charge where you can. I'd definitely rather they charge for camping than for an entrance fee.

- - -

Also, one thing that always gets me.... When we - as a society - like something, we generally want to support it. There's an entire "industry" of charities where we can donate money to support those things that we think are valuable additions to society. We give money to family to help them out because we love them (or at least, some people do). We donate to our kids school PTAs or pay for them to play sports.

But when it comes to supporting outdoor recreation by paying a bit of money, we suddenly balk at it, because it used to be free. Shouldn't we be looking at it the other way around - supporting the people/agencies that keep these places going for us is worth it? (esp. as they do so with fewer and fewer employees).

I dunno, food for thought.

 

Well.. one of the good things about having made it to almost 70 is that a maxed out burrito from Chipotle is lunch for 3 days, sometimes 4. Lol...

That said. I likewise almost never camp in anything resembling an organized (as in, having to pay for it) campground, pretty much identically the same definition as yours, for the same reasons.

But even "free" campgrounds, if they have a vault toilet, tables, fire rings, etc, need at least an occasional eyeball. Which costs money. The Congress has been squeezing Interior and Agriculture for decades, meaning fewer or at least not much of an increase in dollars to cover expenses for what we have historically thought of as "free." Except those amenities never were. Usetabe that our tax dollars were adequate to cover those costs. At this point, since the Feds aren't willing to hand over enough tax money, Interior and Agriculture are having to look directly to users.

I actually did spend the night in a real federal campground a few weeks ago. Happily paid the fee.

 

Charities/PTA/whatever are all choices. Give where you can and preferably direct so you're not paying some admin types a fairly good chunk of money.

I honestly don't object to paying for something I can actually use but be honest about what the fees cover. And don't forget, your taxes pay for these opportunities too.

 

Camping in a "developed" camp area is also a choice.

As for taxes; one could make the same argument as I mentioned earlier for charities/PTA/Inyo NF/whatever, except replace them with USA. Because, taxes are supporting the USA and everything it provides for us. We may not all agree that it should provide all the things that it provides, or the way/efficiency in which it provides, but regardless of which side of the aisle we're on, or what we think about one administration or another, my sense is that we all do love the USA. What better way to show support for the USA, than in the same way we support a charity/PTA/whatever, and to have the same feeling of satisfaction when we do so? Especially when the show of support is for something that is in the "outdoor" or "public land" space.

Don't get me wrong, I don't love paying taxes when that time comes around. But, I do try to remind myself that I want our American society to thrive, and this is how we give it the means to do that.

As for being honest about what the fees cover - I 100% agree with you. Too often I think we (as a society these days) try to obfuscate or sugar coat things so as to cover our asses or not offend. Some honesty and understanding of/willingness to engage when there are different opinions would go a long way to making the rest of the country more like TacomaWorld. (Which is to say, a pretty good place in a sea of internet "social media garbage.")

 

Note that I did say I was willing to pay. But if you tell me the increase is going toward improvements, then improve those places. Especially when the rhetoric includes “come to expect”. And by honesty, all I mean is do what you say you will. So if today, a $5 donation at Grandview increases to $25 night, then make some improvements.

As far as choice, I cannot choose how my tax dollars are spent.

 

I personally think that "improvements," could be as simple as cleaning up trash that a lot of self-absorbed people leave lying around; a lot of times, it's as though places like this are a personal dump. And at least the way I read it, "improve recreational sites" means the larger forest (where the money is collected) that's managed as opposed to the specific pay station where it's taken in. As an analogy, we don't all expect the physical pay stations at the edges of DVNP to be amazing because that's where the money is collected.

As for your taxes -- we as a country do get to say how those are spent, indirectly, through voting and those we elect to office (at all levels of govt, some of which we may agree with more or less). And, that's no different than giving money to a charities/PTA/Inyo NF/whatever, where you donate to "the cause" and that organization (which you may only mostly agree with) ultimately determines how to spend the money.

 

Well said. This is 100% how I feel.

 

Taxes are not a choice. Donating to a charity is a choice. If they want to raise the costs of camping and use funds to help manage the forest, say that. Personally, I'd rather places like Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest (where Grandview is) add an entrance fee and share whatever needs among all users.

 

Taxes may not feel like a choice, especially since you can go to jail for not paying them (at least, that's how it's supposed to work in normal times). But... technically, taxes are also a choice. You choose which country to live in, and pay taxes based on that choice. Turns out, they're lower in the USA than a lot of what I think most of us would consider "nice" places in the world. At least, according to this web site: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/highest-taxed-countries or this one https://www.worlddata.info/income-taxes.php

I'm with you on being clear and transparent when possible. Just remember, they may have thought that they were clear and transparent, since I read it one way and you read it another. They may have written it assuming people would think what I did, or what you did; we don't know, but we should give them the benefit of the doubt, especially in a time when a large chunk of their staff has gone missing (I mean, "was fired").

As for charging an entrance fee for the ABPC, makes sense to me, and I'd happily pay (while complaining, lol). Shoot, it sounds weird to say, but I look forward to buying my America the Beautiful Pass every winter at Furnace Creek. I'm sure it doesn't matter where I buy it, but I like thinking that the money will help out DVNP, or at least the telemetry in their database will show that I purchased it there, so it must be a valuable place for funds to be spent.

 

It absolutely does matter where you purchase it. 80% of the fee stays at the park where you purchase it and 20% is shared across the park system. That’s why I’ve always bought mine in DVNP.

 

What?! Yay!

Edit: Sorry, to give Ian a bit of a hard time... I wish they were more transparent about the fact that my fees were - mostly - staying in DVNP. (Seriously Ian, I appreciate that we're able to have this discussion in a civilized manner. Thank you.)