Gun in church

or maybe this guy

 

I hear no complaints from church goers when I carry concealed at my church!

 

the federal gun free zone doesnt apply if you have a permit...in PA schools are off limits unless you have a legit lawful reason to possess them...a guy successfully argued self defense as a legal reason and won...but its not binding in any court in PA(maybe only the local municipal/county court) but for instance Alabama issues permits to 18 year olds you could technically get a permit and carry to high school 100% legally because they are not off limits at the state level either

 

commandments are basically laws youre required to follow if youre faithful....so they are not total BS if your truly believe

 

A Brief Explanation of the Sword in Luke 22:36

James M. Arlandson​

Did Jesus endorse and encourage violence in the Gospels, presumably a righteous kind of violence? Did he call his original disciples to this? Did he order all of his disciples to buy swords, really? One verse may indicate that he did.
And Luke 22:36 reads:

36 [Jesus] said to [the disciples], "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag; and the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one." (New Revised Standard Version, NRSV)
​

Cited in isolation, the verse suggests that swords and violence are a possibility. It seems as if all of the disciples should go out and buy one each. After the death and burial of Jesus, they would have to face the world alone without him, so they thought.
However, what happens to the apparent meaning of the verse when it is not read in isolation, but in context? Did Jesus really wield a sword and want all of the disciples to buy one each?
Exegesis of Luke 22:36
The historical context of Luke 22:36 demonstrates that for three years Jesus avoided making a public, triumphal entry of his visits to Jerusalem because he understood that when he set foot in the holy city in this way, he would fulfill his mission to die, in a death that looked like one of a common criminal, just as Isaiah the prophet had predicted hundreds of years before (Is. 53:12). He needed to complete his work outside of Jerusalem.
Now, however, Jesus finally enters the city famous for killing her prophets (Luke 13:33-34), a few days before his arrest, trial and crucifixion, all of which he predicted. Religious leaders were spying on him and asked him trick questions, so they could incriminate him (Luke 20:20). These insincere questions, though they were also asked before he entered the city, increased in frequency during these compacted tense days. But he answered impressively, avoiding their traps. Despite the tension, each day Jesus taught in the temple, and crowds gathered around him, so the authorities could not arrest him, for fear of the people. Then Judas volunteered to betray him, saying that he would report back to the authorities when no crowd was present (Luke 22:1-6).
As Passover drew near, Jesus asked some of his disciples to prepare the Last Supper (most likely the Seder). He elevated the bread and the wine, representing his body and blood, which was broken and shed for the sins of the world in the New Covenant (Luke 22:17-20). However, during the meal, Judas slipped out to search for the authorities because he knew that it was the custom of Jesus to go to the Mount of Olives to pray (Luke 21:37), and that night would be no different.
At this point we pick up the textual context of Luke 22:36 (bold print). He is eating the Last Supper on the night he was betrayed.
Luke 22:35-38 says:

35 [Jesus] asked them [the eleven apostles], "When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
They said, "No, not a thing."
36 He said to them, "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled."
38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"It is enough," he replied. (NRSV)
​

The textual context reveals at least two truths. First, Jesus contrasts his ministry before his arrival in Jerusalem with the tense few days in Jerusalem when spies and the authorities themselves were seeking to trap him. Does the tension play a part in understanding why he told his disciples to go out and buy swords? This is answered, below. Second, he says that he would be arrested and tried as a criminal, as the prophecy in Is. 53:12 predicted. Does this have anything to do with swords? Do criminals carry them around? This too is explained, below. Jesus may have a deeper meaning in mind than the violent use of the swords. What is it?
The interpretation of the verses can follow either a strictly physical direction in which swords must be used, or a nonphysical one in which swords must not be used, during Jesus’ last hours. The surest and clearest direction is the nonliteral one, but first we analyze why the literal one will not fit into Luke 22:34-38 and into the passage about the arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane (Luke 22:39-53).
Violent use of the swords
Jesus says to the disciples to buy swords, but when they show him two, Jesus says the two are enough. The first direction, the literal one, is inadequate for two reasons.
First, the obvious question is: two swords are enough for what? Are they enough for a physical fight to resist arrest? This is hardly the case because during Jesus’ arrest a disciple (Peter according to John 18:10) took out his sword and cut off the ear of the servant (Malchus according to John 18:10) of the high priest. Jesus sternly tells Peter to put away his sword, "No more of this!" and then he heals the servant, restoring his ear (Luke 22:49-51). Resisting arrest cannot be the purpose of the two swords.
Second, were the two swords enough for an armed rebellion to resist the authorities and to impose the new Jesus movement in a political and military way? Jesus denounces this purpose in Luke 22:52, as the authorities are in the process of arresting him: "Am I leading a rebellion that you have come with swords and clubs?" The answer is no, as he is seized and led away (v. 54).
So the physical interpretation of Luke 22:36 (the two swords were intended to be used) will not work in the larger context. Two swords are not enough to resist arrest, to pull off a revolt of some kind, or to fully protect themselves in the Garden of Gethsemane.
The contextual meaning of the swords
In contrast to the literal interpretation of using swords physically, the following interpretation works smoothly in context so that all the pieces of the puzzle fit together.
First, Jesus reminds the disciples of his mission for them before he arrived in Jerusalem (Luke 9:3; 10:1-17). Did they need a purse, a bag, or extra sandals? No, because people were friendlier, and their opposition to him was spread out over three years. Now, however, he is in Jerusalem, and he has undergone the compacted antagonism of religious leaders seeking to trap him with self-incriminating words. When the authorities are not present, they send their spies. The atmosphere is therefore tense, and the two swords—no more than that—represent the tension. Jesus’ mission has shifted to a clear danger, and the disciples must beware. However, he certainly did not intend for his disciples to use the swords, as we just saw in the literal interpretation, above, for he is about to tell Peter to put away his sword.
Second, "For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’" (Luke 22:37). By far the clearest purpose of the two swords is Jesus’ reference to Isaiah’s prophecy (53:12). He was destined to be arrested like a criminal, put on trial like a criminal, and even crucified like a criminal (but his arrest, trial, and execution were based on false evidence. He did nothing but good.) Yet, he was hung on the cross between two thieves, which is also a fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy (Luke 23:32; 39-43). What are criminals known for carrying with them? Weapons, and to be numbered among criminals, Jesus must also have weapons. That is why he said that only two swords would be enough—to fulfill this prophecy. Also, Matthew mentions fulfilling prophecy (26:54). If Peter had kept on physically using the sword to prevent Christ’s arrest, prophecy would not have been accomplished smoothly and without hindrance. Jesus says that he could call on twelve legions of angels to protect him, meaning he is destined by God to die; he was not permitted to stop even the mighty Roman Empire from fulfilling its role (Matt. 26:53). That is why Jesus told Peter to put his sword back in its place (Matt. 26:52). And in Luke he says to Peter after the disciple cut off an ear, "No more of this!" (22:51).
The third and final nonliteral interpretation says that Jesus frequently used physical objects (seeds, lamps, vineyards, coins, lost sheep and so on) to teach nonphysical, universal truths, and the same is possibly true of the two swords. This interpretation of clarification is supported by Matt. 10:34: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword." As seen in this article on Matt. 10:34, in context he does not mean a physical sword that cuts up and bloodies the family, but a spiritual and moral one that may divide it up nonphysically. And it is precisely Luke who clarifies Jesus’ meaning of "sword" as nonliteral, in the two parallel passages of Matt. 10:34 and Luke 12:51. If Luke does this in 12:51, then why would he not shift slightly the meaning of "sword" in 22:36-38?
Early Christian history
The foregoing interpretation of the nonphysical use of swords does not say that the two swords did not exist (Luke 22:38). They are not symbols, nor were they imaginary or invisible. Peter really did cut off the ear of the servant of the high priest with one of them (Matt. 26:50-51; Luke 22:49-51).
However, Peter’s use of the sword is done before the formal birth of the Church at Pentecost, when he will be filled with the Spirit in an unprecedented way (Acts 2). It would be misguided to build church doctrine on such a reaction in the heat of the moment, during Jesus’ arrest at night, before Pentecost.
On the other hand, Jesus said to Peter in the Garden, "Put your sword back in its place," meaning, back in its scabbard or holder or in Peter’s belt or another article of clothing. He never said to throw the sword away, off to the side at a distance. Therefore, it is entirely possible that some disciples carried the two weapons after the crucifixion and burial when they lived in hostile territory, and maybe some did after the Resurrection and Ascension.
However, later reliable tradition says that none of the Apostles fought or even tried to fight their way out of fiery trials with swords, as some sort of misguided, twisted, violent martyrs. Instead, tradition says that all of the Apostles but John were martyred as a direct result of persecution (John died from natural causes in old age). Evidently, the example of Jesus throughout his life and in the Garden of Gethsemane made an impression on them.
Though part of this is an argument from silence (drawing conclusions from what a text or history does not say), it is a significant silence of the historical records that speaks volumes. Readers may scroll to the end of the article to begin a series on Pacifism and the Sword in the New Testament. There, this silence will have the support of words.
Conclusion
The events in the Garden of Gethsemane and the commands of Jesus there teach the Apostles nonaggression, so Luke 22:36 does not permit violence. He said to Peter: "For all who draw the sword will die by the sword" (Matt. 26:52). Peter and the others heard those words that clarify the use of swords. Therefore, a lifestyle of the sword must not be part of the disciples’ new walk with the resurrected Christ, as they preached his message of hope.

 

the sword was put up because Peter was being offensively...he was not being defensive....ie attacking officer serving a warrant to arrest you. but if youre being attacked you have a right to defend yourself. Jesus didnt tell Peter to put away his sword only to put it in its place. If he didnt want Peter to have any weapons and carry them he would have told him that instead...

 

you heart it here first folks

 

I think you're seeing what you want to see... and you can of course say the same about me. Read pages 11-12 of the below link. I don't think they track with what you say. To paraphrase and add a rebutal; if you are told not to use a weapon to even defend yourself, why have one other than for purposes of hunting or if provided for military service? I can't imagine much concealed carry handgun hunting opportunities between the pews.



Frank

 

Oz, you mentioned you were trying to understand... the best way to understand is to understand the basis of our Constitution. It is based on Checks and Balances. Or to put it another way... full acceptance of the conflict between two opposing points of view, from passive acknowledgment all the way up to and including physical confrontation.

Governments and government agencies tend to enforce the thought process that they are more capable than the average citizen at handling a certain situation. Which brings us back to the checks and balances that keep this from getting out of hand.

For Gun Control there are two groups:
We will do the protection for you
We will protect our own families, friends and neighbors

Both extremes to any side are wrong as there is no complete anarchy or %100 civil behavior built into human nature. The two extremes can not exist for long.

Most all Gun nuts agree that you don't bring a gun to a place where there is "Civil Conflict" built into the system. For Civil purposes you are trying to create a fair structure for avoiding conflict. Thus court houses and goverment buildings are unarmed.

Where churches fall into place is that there is no "Civil Conflict" within the walls of a Church. There is no reason to ban guns inside of church. The major conflicts will come from outside of the chruch and to put a population at risk of massacre in their own place of meeting would be wrong. This would put Christians at more of a risk than atheists.

***************
And in response to your statement: Our Country and our need for guns does not make us sad. We have higher highs and lower lows. We accept that because we live a life fully and freely. Not ignoring something as "Someone elses problem". We helped create this country to push us to our limits. To see what we could accomplish unrestricted from jumping castes or believing in none, one or many Gods. It is not sad, it is our happiness, honor, and duty to be a part of the "We will protect ourselves and others in need" group.

 

this is true of the last few days of these bible pushing, pro gun rights, confederate, right wing, wackos. it is reading the bible and interpreting it as they want it to read, and reading the gun rights / restrictions / violent crime stats, and making the out to however you want them to read, only picking out the parts they agree with and leave out all the rest. it started yesterday with some law about how the media doesnt report some ridiculous 6 months statistic about how more guns = less crime. (which was written and twisted by a known gun activist who is a joke) Today might be worse , as owning guns and a possible govn't coup, are linked with the commandments of the bible. if i believed the bible was even close to real or true, i would be very offended, instead i laugh how things get interpreted

 

That was a damn good answer , I have to give you that .

 

This.

It seems that it's not enough to discuss the types of firearms a member owns or equipment or reloading methods or hunting techniques. Certain members of this forum seem to feel the need to pass along every piece of propaganda they find in order to "enlighten" the public on their favorite cause.

You know what that's called? Politics. Which is verboten on this site.

As to the topic at hand, I personally am under the impression that churches (and other places of worship) are private property and therefore open to making and enforcing their own regulations and the government should keep out.

 

Since we are quoting scripture...

People who have flat noses, or are blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God
~Leviticus 21:17-18

The eating of fat is prohibited forever
~Leviticus 3:17