We are all socialists now

It looks like Wall Street doesn't like the plan either.

 

I have emailed & called too but the problem is those emails/calls/letters get blown off/ignored/trashed that seem to illustrate the discontent with the fucking the tax paying legal citizens are receiving. Anybody that's listening & cares has no power to do anything about it.

 

Yes we do, 2010 is right around the corner.

 

I was thinking more on the lines of an inanimate object... like Harry Reid.

 

every call and email is recorded. if more people voice then eventually the people will run the government again. If we sit back it will just keep getting worse. we got in this situation one pebble at a time.. we can reverse it the same way. Only if people keep trying.. it only take a small amount of time.

 

My congressman and Senator voted against it, but I'm still calling and e-mailing.

 

LonghornTaco,
Thanks for the civil response. You have some good points. However, I think the overarching problem with the US economy is more fundamental. Here's my take:

With any economy, you have to have a number of key ingredients for it to work properly. That includes an employed workforce with the means to buy the products they and others produce. Their productivity is what enables consumerism. Naturally, as you correctly pointed out, profits, efficiency, and improvements in industrial production are all highly desired. But in order for this to work, you need to have a financial system that functions with money coming to consumers via productivity and money going from consumers ( money they earned) going to buy goods and services. When this system works, its beautiful and you have a relative level of stability.

But our economy has not been functioning that way for decades. If you ever get a chance, look up an economist named Michael Hudson. He wrote a piece wayyyy back in 2006, before people were even really recognizing that there was a housing bubble or that it would create such a huge problem.Its called

In his analysis, up to 90% of the growth in debt occurred from housing debt. Prior to the housing boom, banks did not see any real meaningful growth in profits.

Basically, the housing boom was engineered. It not only artificially grew GDP, but bankrupted the American people. There is no accident that a housing bubble occurred. All those involved in the financial system- and that includes many politicians whom were in one way or another influenced to make decisions that enabled the cards to be set up- were well aware of what the outcome would be, which would be the means for the financial system to reap enormous profits with little to no actual productivity.

But it isn't just housing either. Before housing there was a tech bubble. Before that, the savings and loan debacle which was itself the result of an oil bubble prior to that. In other words, the US economy has been fueled with bubbles for years. There's another guy I'm reading. His name is John Talbott and the book is:

He also suggests that the US has had no real growth in GDP for over 10 years. Again, his reasons are with the inflation of bubbles, and especially the housing bubble.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm all for open ended free trade and enterprise. I myself am probably in the camp that you could call entrepeanurs. But there is a fine line between savvy business growth and corporate responsibility. That's where the argument falls. Too much intervention and you get a underperforming, non-competititve economy. None at all and the system becomes corrupt.But the financial system was unquestionably run in a highly irresponsible manner, and as we are seeing, causing enormous amounts of damage to the everyday lives of the avg citizen. Thus the line has to be drawn somewhere.

But.... here's my way of looking at it. You see, I'm actually pretty much against a bailout for principal alone. The way I see it is that Capitalism in its purest form is destructive. It creates wealth as long as those at the top can make more and more. The problem with that system is that consumers ultimately can't afford goods and services- in this round, houses. Just as a capitalist driven system is allowed to grow unhampered, it should be allowed to fall unhampered. The bottom line is that if consumers can't afford to buy things- like houses, cars, or groceries- with their incomes, then the prices are too high and will have to fall enough for that to happen. Ultimately that is more healthy. That ultimately means that those at the top will also have to make adjustements. Once a new bottom is reached and the system works, then things begin to work again. People can afford to buy homes. Businesses hire again. Car makers can sell cars again, and incomes can cover the cost of living better. So no- I don't approve the bailout at all.

However, we can't continue having an economy where we don't make anything and instead fluff things up with large quantities of debt. That system will not work.

And lastly, I still think the anger out there is being misdirected. I'm sure there's lots of people who hate democrats- whether they have gold dust blowing out of their rears or passing bailouts, whom get a little thrill bashing them. Trust me- I live in the Bay Area of SF and liberals here did the same thing during the Bush admin. It does nothing. Thus why I suggest being more constructive and actually look at the causes and think of ways to avoid that outcome from happening again.

 

Bob, ultimately I think you and I will have to agree to disagree. Because I believe that a purely capitalist system DOES work as long as you let it work. It has natural ups and downs... Booms and busts. That's the nature of the beast. However, we as a society have to realize that and during the boom times, put away some money to weather the busts much more comfortably.

And I agree with you about all the economic bubbles we've had, but I believe they were created because the economy wasn't allowed to find it's natural bottom. It was propped up by government interference, sustaining the bubble, making it much worse when it burst. Just like our situation RIGHT now. Our economy is trying to find it's natural bottom, but the government isn't letting it. They are trying to prop up consumer confidence, spending, jobs, etc... That type of interference is what is going to turn a very short, albeit more painful, recession into an extremely long, drawn out period of economic stagnation.

You and I DO agree on one thing though... Bailouts = BAD!! No company is too big to fail. And if some think it is, well it's too big period (thanks to government-allowed rubber stamp mergers).

One of my favorite talk show hosts uses this quote a lot: "Capitalism without bankruptcy is like religion without hell".

 

the great thing about Capitalism is that the giants only make their millions because we let them.. you you don't like it then change your buying habits.

FYI A state Reb just said... "POST THIS ON THE INTERNET FOR THE PUBLIC TO REVIEW AND DESIDE BEFORE IT GETS VOTED ON!"

 

That's cool Longhorn,
I totally agree- people need to learn how to save money. I had grandparents who grew up in the Depression and had a pretty hard time. They both retired relatively comfortably, and mostly just from saving cash. You should have seen their fridges- which they each had 2-3 each. Full of food. Perhaps what's going on now will snap people back to reality. You can learn a lot talking to older people. They've been through hell and know how to survive.

 

Can you imagine the horror of today's average American if they had to ration food, gas and other staples like our grandparents did during the Depression and WWII? I don't think the people of this great nation are strong enough to survive that.

 

Not a lot would know what to do... after all what would they do if they didn't get the money from the gov. to get a digital tv converter?

 

Exactly.

 

I agree. But people learn fast. I also think there's actually a lot of opportunity in times like these. For example, Pepsi came out with a bigger and cheaper bottle in the 30's that outsold coke and made them a major competitor. There's a transition between affluent economies and hard ones. Its easier to make new products and services for a population you know is looking for something cheaper.

Perhaps we won't throw things away as much anymore. I swear I bought this POS toaster 3 years ago. It blew up last week and it was all stamped together. I replaced it with a 20 year old toaster oven from a yard sale. I can fix this one.

 

Okay I'm hip..

uh huh

I agree!!

So you are saying we need to get back to basics, right?? Lenders lend responsibly.. People buy a house they can actually afford.. There is nothing in the US Constitution that says everyone deserves a home. Those who cannot own said house-- there is this concept called RENT.. It exists for a good reason.
Some will argue "thats not fair".. Well didn't your mother explain that long ago..

 

I agree. Cash is king right now. Those companies that towed the line, kept their D/E ratios in line and have large amounts of cash can do a lot of advancing right now. They may have to contract a bit, but I see alot of growth for certain companies in the next 5 years.

 

but isnt' everyone entitled?

 

Yup. I agree. Hell-I've rented since I was 17, and I'm going on 32 now. No shame in renting, and especially if renting costs 1/3rd that of buying. Allows us to save up a lot of cash. If only other people made that same conclusion.

 

"deserves"... That is a very dangerous word. It implies entitlement. My 27 year old younger sister always says to me "I can't find a job where someone will pay me what I deserve". My response to her is that NO ONE DESERVES ANYTHING. You EARN it!

ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner!!