6spd manual transmission differences

I don't know about you, but to me, 150 RPM at 70 MPH is a decent amount when you take into account fuel costs. I will have to find the documentation on this, but as I recall, once you are above 55 MPH, your fuel economy decreases exponentially. A 150RPM change at 70 MPH means less fuel. Now granted, the cost of doing the gear swap, etc has to be taken into account, I get that. Just saying that 150 RPM is a decent amount actually when you are at hwy speed.

Automatic transmissions have increased in efficiency over the years. They do not have the problems they used to. Once you are at cruise speed and the TCC engages, an automatic transmission operates just like a manual as far as efficiency (read fuel economy) goes. Also, computers shift the automatics now, and the algorithm that is used makes the shifts occur for a cross between fuel efficiency, and power. What counts is the gear ratio on the inside of the manuals, and the automatics.
If you look at the 2012 Tacoma, the following are the MPG stats:
EPA Estimated Fuel Economy*
(city/highway MPG)
16/21 (6-speed manual 4x2/PreRunner)
15/19 (6-speed manual 4x4)
17/21 (5-speed automatic)
16/21 (5-speed automatic 4x4)

Here it clearly shows the auto gets better MPG.

As for torque stealing, that information is incorrect. The torque converters built in the past decade, and even before, have a torque multiplier and allow plenty of the engine torque to get to the wheels.

+1

 

I think you'd have to swap the 6th speed gear on the main shaft, AND the accompanying gear on the counter shaft to get the desired result. To change the ratio, the tooth count must change. If tooth count is changed, the gear diameter OR tooth size much change. Changing diameter or tooth size on one will cause improper mesh (or no mesh at all) with the OEM gear on the counter shaft, so it must be changed too.

Cool idea though.

My .02

 

BamaToy1997: what you say about torque stealing is not correct, except for when the torque converter is actually locked up. When the torque converter is unlocked, in theory, the differential between the input and output speed represents a torque multiplication, however, there is a massive amount of friction (fluid sloshing all around) that drastically eats into it.

OP+everyone: I see reference to T56 swaps. I dont recommend this, all T56 configurations have a very high first ratio. This is good for performance vehicles, but not for hard work.

As an alternative (ignore whatever nissan haters make spew as a response to this), consider a FS6R31A, which is the 6 speed in Frontier. These have a better gear spread than RA60 has, 4.368, 2.518, 1.743, 1.283, 1, 0.769. With the lower first gear ratio, you could drop axle ratios to maybe 3.3 or 3.5-ish, and get the engine speed right down to automatic levels.

 

Absolutely correct. Gears must be changed in pairs. Now the big problem is that of each pair, one is most definitely not removable from the shaft. It is, in fact, cut out of the shaft, so this process would involve lathing the teeth off a hardened shaft, possibly/probably building the shaft back up, then cutting new teeth out of it.

 

Sorry sir, I have to disagree with you there. I have been diagnosing and repairing both manual and automatic transmissions for nearly 20 years. There is a part INSIDE the torque converter that is called the stator. Part of it's job is to recover the torque that is lost with a fluid coupling system as in a torque converter.

This is an excerpt from apsprecision.com:

"The stator is sandwiched between the impeller and the turbine. The stator is only needed for torque multiplication when the impeller and the turbine are turning at very different speeds, as one might expect that would be from breakaway from a dead stop or accelerating at low road speeds and generous amounts of throttle. When the speed of the impeller is greater than that of the turbine the stator will redirect the Automatic transmission fluid returning from the turbine and in turn change its rotation back to that of the impeller. The stator is mounted on a one-way clutch that only allows it to rotate with the direction of the engine, but never against the direction of engine rotation. This one-way clutch will lock the stator when the impeller is turning faster than the turbine, and in turn the stator will redirect automatic transmission fluid flow over its stator vanes in an outward radial direction to increase engine torque thereby creating torque
multiplication. So it is fair to say torque multiplication is totally controlled by the shape and direction of the stator vanes. The stator will capture energy from the automatic transmission fluid that the turbine has not
and will use this energy to increase engine torque. At the impeller and turbine speeds almost equal one another we will now be “OFF THE STATOR” and now the one way clutch will permit it to freewheel till
again the impeller speed is far higher then turbine speed and the stator will again be called on for some torque multiplication assistance. Another important measurement is efficiency when the stator is freewheeling we want the ATF direction to influenced by the stator as little as possible thereby increasing torque converter efficiency. Remember efficiency is controlled by limiting spacing between the stator vanes. APS Precision Mfg in its line of high performance converters will choose from 8 different alternatives the correct stator for your Dodge/Jeep Application to maximize torque multiplication for your application."

 

Aaron, In some case, you will have to change the shaft, however many of the manufacturers out there are now building the manual transmissions where the gears on both the input AND output shafts are replaceable. This helps reduce repair costs due to no longer needing to replace entire shafts, but simply replacing the gear itself. This also allows a gearbox to have multiple applications. One could use the same gearbox and shafts between two different trucks (lets say a 4 cyl v/s a 6 cyl) and all they have to do is manufacture the different gears.

 

Yikes, I forgot that one of them is cut with the shaft. I don't know which one though, never had one apart.

That said, I don't think I would recommend lathing the teeth of the integral gear and then building the shaft back up (via welding I presume) and cutting new teeth. The heat treat & stress relieving process that most transmission parts go through has a huge effect on strength, toughness, surface finish, fatigue life, etc. I had a lot more written here, but then I decided that no one wants to read my engineering rant.

On the other hand, you COULD cut an entire new shaft with integral gear, heat treat it, shot peen, etc. (a lot of work, special equipment, and expert knowledge of materials is a must - to get factory quality anyway). Not to mention that it changes the load conditions that each driveline component sees, from counter shaft rearward. If for whatever reason, this change were being made by Toyota, each of the downstream components (and some upstream) would go through a new round of stress analysis, fatigue analysis, etc. to make sure that the change doesn't render some other part inadequate due to the new load conditions.

That's enough to make me stop and say forget it. My point of view comes from my truck being a DD though. That's a major design change, and I say just try to live with the stock ratios.

On the other hand, it could work fine for the life of the vehicle...but I'm not going to try it. I did have someone repair a chipped tooth on a gear in my motorcycle transmission by welding and cutting...worked fine for about a year, until I got rear ended.

Yeah, that's what I was saying - just change gears, until Knucklehead pointed out that one of the gears may be integral to the shaft. I've never had one of these apart, just seen pics, so I don't know which of them are integral. In any case, there must be some way of fixing the gears to the shaft. It could be that it is splined, but now I'm speculating. That would allow for a gear to be fixed to the shaft, but still be replaceable.

For the OP's idea of modding the 6th speed gear ratio, it's still true that both the main and counter shaft gears that give 6th speed will need to be changed, whether by cutting new shaft, lathing/welding/cutting new teeth (which I don't recommend), or just replacing gears. If neither of them are integral to a shaft, then it would be fairly easy for an aftermarket gear mfg to make them, but it's not for the average Joe.

I see you're a ASE Master Tech. Is that a Toyota thing (Do you work for Toyota)? If so, I may PM you to pick your brain, if you don't mind, about a transmission issue I'm having with my RA60F. It's a fairly specific question, that's why I asked if you work for Toyota.

 

Replacing both of the gears was my original thought. The idea was to buy a cheap enough used transmission so that I could tear it apart and see what was really involved. I've found a RA60 with 20k on it for $250 shipped, but I don't know the exact differences betweent he 60 and the 60F. I'll just keep my eyes open for a 60F for dirt cheap.

 

The stator *helps*, it doesnt even come CLOSE to solving. With the stator, you dont lose 100% of the torque. There is, however, NOTHING that can save 100% of your torque. If the stator could solve the torque loss problem, there would be absolutely no point in having a locking mechanism in a torque converter, since there would be no loss to capture back by locking.

I am not advocating this as a flawless description, but have a look at the wikipedia article on torque converters under 'efficiency'. There is actually a not-bad description of the power loss from torque converters.

 

I haven't done much modding on my truck, especially not anything like this, but that sounds like your best bet. Just try to get both and compare, if you have the money. I would bet that since they have different designations (60 vs 60F), that there may be some major differences. Maybe the output shaft (or all shafts?) are bigger, to handle the higher torque needed for 4x4...who knows. You could always resell the transmissions if it won't work, but that in my eyes is also a hassle. I started a thread about a transmission problem a couple months ago...some users posted some links with some good pics of the 60F I think.

Pics and/or links to pics in here: http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/2n...aler-negotiations-6spd-trans-replacement.html

 

Again, we must agree to disagree. I have given my background and knowledge, I am not sure where you get your information from. Your statement "...the difference between the input and output speed represents a torque multiplication.." I must say because the difference in speed between those two is a ratio, and has nothing to do with torque. Torque is a measurement of force, not a difference in speed. The stator, when not in lockup, uses it's one-way clutch to divert fluid that is returning from the turbine in the correct direction to counteract the loss of torque, and increase the output. As for fluid "sloshing around", the torque converter is filled 100% with fluid. No air. Fluid cannot "slosh" in a full container. While there IS heat generation from friction, that heat is released when the fluid flows through the rest of the system, and the cooler.

ASE stands for National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence. From the ASE website :

"The non-profit National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence (ASE) works to improve the quality of vehicle repair and service by testing and certifying automotive professionals. Today, more than 350,000 professionals hold ASE certifications, and work in every part of the automotive service industry."

For a simpler explanation, Electricians, plumbers, and other contract employees must have a license. Automotive technicians do not have that requirement (Though many of us are fighting to change this) and as such, there really is no requirement for someone to "turn wrenches" for a living. ASE is a voluntary licensing that tells people we have the knowledge, and experience to work on your cars. You pretty much wont find a dealership that does not have their techs ASE certified. My shop is one of them. You can find more information at their website at www.ase.com. Personally I would recommend that EVERYONE take their repairs to a shop that only has ASE certified techs working there.

I am not sure on the Toyotas, but I can look it up. Some transmissions have splined gears on both the input and output shafts.

The purpose of having a lock-up is more to reduce the heat generated by the stator and turbine. If the converter is in lockup, the fluid flows inside the turbine, but under a much lower pressure. Since the load has been placed on the lockup clutch, the friction of the fluid inside the converter is GREATLY reduced, and the heat is reduced. This has the added benefit of also allowing zero "slip"

Further information I have found that gives detailed information:

"The key characteristic of a torque converter is its ability to multiply torque when there is a substantial difference between input and output rotational speed, thus providing the equivalent of a reduction gear. Some of these devices are also equipped with a temporary locking mechanism which rigidly binds the engine to the transmission when their speeds are nearly equal, to avoid slippage and a resulting loss of efficiency.

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/torque-converter#ixzz1ypqcmmUf
We can do this all day long. lol. I have years of experience here on the subject.

​

 

Look, I have no interest in arguing against your voluntary training, I am sure you are at least marginally skillful at turning wrenches, but unfortunately, you have no concept of what is actually going on in these things.

There is first off no such thing as agreeing to disagree on a subject for which the argument is factual. This isnt a question of opinion, it is a question of fact.

The first thing you have suggested is that the shaft speed differential doesnt represent torque multiplication, rather a ratio. I suppose they didnt explain to you that the ratio and the torque factor are the same thing. For example, a ratio of 2:1 is a torque multiplication factor of 2. Specifically, if you have 100 footpounds torque on the input shaft and a speed differential of 2:1 (and 100% converter efficiency), then the output torque is 200 footpounds (100x2).

Torque and speed are very much related.

The next thing you said of any consequence is that the lockup torque converter is for reduction of heat: let me ask you this... where does the heat come from? If the torque converter didnt waste energy (consume torque), it would not produce heat. This heat is the missing energy!!! Funny, you also mention the friction of the fluid inside the converter. Now where are we? Are you confused? Or are you just trolling?

 

That isn't my question, it's another issue altogether. And I'm not the OP by the way - not sure if there was some confusion there. I'd probably be better off asking someone that is a master tech for Toyota - no offense.

 

It seems to me that YOU are the troll. I have seen many threads where you try to impart you "vast" knowledge of everything in the world. I AGAIN have yet to hear you recite a SINGLE bit of background in any training you have in the automotive field. I even ASKED for it, and that part was ignored. ANYONE can go to websites and look things up, like I have to show my point. Where does your actual knowledge come from? I have yet to see you say it. I have quite a vast bit of knowledge when it comes to transmissions. Not only did I work directly in the field of transmissions, but I was an instructor for GM. I DO know what I am talking about. In the interests of keeping this civil, I am done with discussing anything further with you. While I am sure that you will not just drop the subject, I am dropping it. I will be truly surprised if you can just drop the subject however.

As for agreeing to disagree, it is simple. But to make things easier to understand I will explain it. We both can agree that neither one of us will agree on this particular subject. It is simple. Thus, we agree to disagree.

As far as anything else is concerned, I will no longer directly respond to you.

 

Is anyone actually convinced by that "I am an ASE master tech" crap? All that means is that you passed an online exam about tighten=clockwise, loosen=counterclockwise, and when done, wipe dashboard with armorall.

Congrats, you passed armorall university.

You are also completely ignorant of how and why things actually work. I have provided you with explanations, and even a link to 3rd party explanations. You lost this argument and know it, now you have followed the last resort of the troll, you arent even disputing what was said, now you are just hiding behind an interwebz credential that is totally meaningless and non verifiable.

As for any training I may or may not have received, that is completely pointless, since (1) such claims could not be verified and it would therefore make me look like a troll, (2) training is BY FAR the LEAST likely source of real knowledge, and is nothing besides a shield against the truth that you are truly lacking in real information.

Let me ask you this: do you think that the people who DESIGNED this torque converter had "ASE" certificates? In fact, a wrench turning certificate would be totally invalid for those people, and the reason is because "ASE" does NOT mean that you have any understanding of how things work, only that you can follow a certain diagnostic process to isolate and replace broken pieces.

I make absolutely no claims about my education and experience. I provide fact. Fact has been spoken, and for those people who actually have the capacity to understand, that fact will stand on its own.

 

Since you are so fond of links and online information, why don't you look up ASE? It is not a simple online test. You cannot take the ASEs online. They have testing centers where you take a closed book exam with a examination proctor there to verify you do not cheat, nor have someone else take the test for you. You have to have a minimum of 2 years of hands-on experience to have your certification. You must retest every 4 years, and the tests are based on knowledge of diagnosing and proper repairs. I was offered a job with GM at their technical assistance center, and also offered a job to be a field tech. So yes, I do have a good bit of extensive know how.

I have also provided facts and links supporting my side. You evidently have not checked them, or decided that they must be incorrect because they do not agree with what you have said. Numerous times there have been comments directly stating torque multiplication, and I have even explained how it works. Again, you don't agree because what you find on the interweb.

How would proving your knowledge be trolling? I only assume you state that because you either don't have any personal experience, or you use that statement to try to discredit me. I am quite proud of my automotive knowledge and experience. I also have a degree in automotive technology. You seem to want to discredit me, and those who are also ASE certified. Why? I have said nothing disparaging towards you (except I admit to saying you might be trolling here) and have simply asked for your background in the automotive field.

Do I think that those who designed the TC had ASE certification? Well to be honest, they may have, but I doubt it, because ASE certification is not for someone who designs something. It is for those who are there to diagnose the failure, and fix the failure. you are COMPLETELY incorrect in your statement that "ASE does not mean that you have the understanding of how things work..." I ask you to find anything out there that actually proves otherwise. It is the exact opposite. Those with ASE certification have proven with knowledge and real-world experience that they have the understanding. We are required to keep up with the constant changes in the automobile. Antilock brakes, Computer control systems, electrical systems, hydraulics, gears, HVAC systems, Hybrids, Electrical cars.....We all have to constantly study and learn. It is an ongoing process. Face it, you have absolutely NO clue at all about ASE and their program. None. And you also have no idea how things like this work either. Anyone can look up stuff on the internet. I have been DOING this for years. If anyone at all wants to see my DOCUMENTED education and experience, it is available. I have a million dollar shop that I own, and run. I have had no advertizement other than word-of-mouth, and it is quite successful, with absolutely no complaints filed against it, or dissatisfied customers, because I know my trade sir. I challenge you to come to the Alabama thread and ask everyone there about what I know. I ASK you to ask about me. You simply sir do not accept that someone may actually have PERSONAL knowledge over a subject that you just make a few clicks and say "here is what I have found". I bring forth facts from sites that prove exactly what I claimed from personal knowledge.

All of my credentials are verifiable. You don't provide any credentials because yours are not verifiable. It is basic sir. You have lost the argument, not me. You just are unable to accept or admit it. you say I went last resort by a troll comment? Well you have gone last result by saying that since I did not respond further, that I must be caving in. Far from it. I simply stated that we are getting nowhere between us in this thread, and have taken it far from the original OPs request.

You are correct, fact has been spoken on this subject. Just not by you.

Again, I am done discussing things with you. I should just let this horse lay down and die, but I have a feeling you will continue to poke it.

 

It is not my responsibility to prove that you know something. You have done an amazing job proving that you know nothing. Youve talked youself into a hole, and now the lies are growing in complexity. Quite funny actually, watching you humiliate yourself.

 

Really? I think it is funny how you have done it to yourself. You can't support your own claims beyond name calling. I think that is just hilarious. Seems to me after all of this, it is you who have proved you know nothing. Sad. Really sad. But please, continue to humor me. I haven't had my really good laugh today. You are quickly helping to remedy it.

Oh I get it! Since you couldn't disprove what I was showing in the facts, you chose to try and discredit me! Nice move! Too bad it failed miserably. You should consider a career in politics, I think you have the skill for that.

 

I've been silently scanning your conversation. In no way has he humiliated himself really. You're the one getting defensive when someone politely disagreed with you. So far you've told him he's wrong, but not provided factual evidence as to why. In my book, calling someone stupid does not convince me that they are wrong.

So far bamatoy has eloquently supported his argument. He provided evidence as well as experience to back up his claims.

In the world of the internet, everything is shenanigans until backed up. You sir have no support to your claims.