I'm skidding out of control

Awesome post. +1 to you sir!

 

I try. I like to stick up for guys like you, ATO, Relentless, and the other boutique shops around. My mother and grandfather both owned and ran their own small businesses for 20+ years each, profitably, so I know more about the trouble and expense of that kind of operation than folks who haven't been there (I'm not saying that about anyone specific in this thread, I'm just generalizing).

People don't realize how hard you bust your ass to make a good product or provide a good service, and what quality really costs.

And lemme know when you're pricing those nice new clearanced fender flares

 

Will do!

 

Im not saying I think the skids are over priced... just the material used to make em is cheap and all of the same quality. 4130 would cost over twice as much in material costs but that is not the lion's share of the price. The cost of quality skids comes from design and consistancy. Skids that fit, holes that line up, etc. The only thing you do with hot rolled generic plate steel is make it thick, heavier and more expensive... 3/16" is the best compromise.

This use of cheap steel is becasue the American Consumer does not demand more. We could use 1/8" 4130 plate and have skids that are 2/3 the weight, stronger, and more corrosion resistant. This would drive up costs and we already have people who whine over $800 for a full set of skids.

 

I'm not disagreeing about cost, but I'm skeptical that it's all the same quality. QC processes simply aren't the same everywhere. I could easily see something billed as a certain alloy coming from the BRIC countries NOT being that alloy if a composition analysis is done. American or European steelmakers are going to charge more for their goods because American and European labor costs more. That's just how it is, and that's why we've been steadily hemorrhaging industry jobs to China, Mexico, and Korea for 25+ years now.

Regarding chromoly or some similar "mega-alloy": Remember, steel that's hard to damage is hard to fabricate with. Not only is the raw material more expensive, but it drives up the production cost as well.

Agreed. And that's the point. There's a "sweet spot" in every market for bang-for-buck.

Would 1/8th chromoly skids be better? Maybe 10 or 15% better. But if the cost is doubled, is that extra 10 or 15% worth 100% more money?

That's up to the consumer to decide. And of course, anyone who wants 1/8th chromoly skids can have them made, at whatever it'll cost 'em. But 90% of the performance at 50% of the price (to continue with my previous theoretical example) is "good enough" for me, as long as they're well made.

 

WOW - Ya just never know the direction a thread will take, do ya? Generally, you post a question on TW - your gonna get an education (Great). So I'm guessing I need to ask each vendor what type of metal they are fabing their skids out of before I throw down my hard earned $$$$$. OK so I know metal isn't just metal and I know how the American capitalistic economy works, and by the way, I'm all in on that! I too believe in and support the entrepreneurial spirit that has made America great (Props to the little guys). All that being said, what metal should good skids be made of? I would be interested in hearing from those who purchased skids and their review on quality, ease of installation, level of modification needed to install, and experience with vendor. Is that asking to much?
I Love This Place!

 

I forgot how to add due to the amount of information I received in this thread.

 

Don't let the guy with the false sense of intelligence fool you.

They all use cheap plate steel. And plate steel is plate steel.

Its not an airplane or a rocket just a cheap steel plate that keeps rocks from putting holes in your transmission.

So yes it still stands that they are over priced. But what are you going to do? If you can not weld you gotta pay to play.

 

If you're getting steel from PDM or a similar supplier your steel is quality. It is steel costly though, ha ha get it, ahhh -- regardless of the alloy used.

As someone who has made his own IFS skid, and as someone who helped Eric come up with a line of skids (the amount of my involvement is debatable but still) and helped make some of Eric's, I can say that the time and resources that go into transforming a piece of plate steel into a skid is considerable. I made my own IFS skid for pretty cheap. Less than 100$ That doesn't consider any of the tools or the time I put into it. If Eric made his skids the way I made mine they wouldn't be pretty enough for your average TWer. It also wouldn't be feasible for Eric to do and they'd end up costing a lot more.

What makes up the cost of the skid?
There is sourcing the steel, in large sheets, and large volumes, to keep the prices down, and let me tell you that shit isn't cheap regardless and it's a PITA to move. Then it has to be cut, a plasma table takes a bit to operate and they aren't cheap to buy either. Then it has to be formed, and unless you have a lot of capital for your own press and a lot of time or another worker to run that press then you have to contract it out and they charge per bend, and it adds up to be quite a % of each skid. Then there is welding and all the time, energy, and consumables, aside from the machine cost. Finally it has to be packaged and shipped with whatever hardware is needed. And of course to get all this rolling there is R&D. Then having a shop and a business/store front, taxes, licenses, etc etc... Oh and I forgot cutting tube for legs, deburring legs, cleaning plate - lots of cleaning plate, cutting the caps for the legs, cleaning the caps, cleaning the edges of the caps for welding.

By the time you're through with all of this, these guys aren't making a killing on you. If you have the skills, time, and ability you could make it cheaper yourself with simple tools, but it'd be rougher. For what you get, and what goes into them, the prices are pretty fair.

 

I'm sure they could use whatever alloy you wanted and not necessarily chromoly. But depending it could be harder to weld/form, thus costing YOU more, and much more expensive material costs.

Please see page 37 of PDMs steel catalog. http://www.pdmsteel.com/PDF/pdm_cat2006c.pdf


Not all plate steel is made the same. It'd be cool to make a skid out of AR400 but it just isn't needed. Standard cheap (relative to other alloys) mild steel plate is more than enough for all but the few people who could possibly benefit from a more expensive but stronger alloy.

 

Got any references to refute all the information I linked earlier? I'm just curious if you have anything to back up what you're saying, or if it's just you saying it.

If you still think this after what I've pointed out, you're beyond help. All I can tell you is no "they" all don't. I know of at least two popular fabs picky about their supplier to ensure quality raw materials.

If it's market rate, it's not overpriced. Just FYI.

Interesting how people who have in depth knowledge in this thread are saying one thing, and everyone looking for the lowest price is saying something else...isn't it?

Good quality mild steel is fine for skids. No need to check with the vendors on their suppliers - just buy from a good fab. Anyone who gives a shit about their product is going to put in the effort needed to ensure they're using good materials.

 

It's funny too because steel prices don't always go as you'd expect. Some things you'd just assume would be less end up costing more and vice versa. It's weird.

Theres a lot of cost wrapped up in these skids and that's reflected in the price. The vendors are not taking you to the cleaners on this. I expect the make decent money but I also expect what they make is fair and consistent with the amount of effort and time expended. I can't say definitely but I'd assume it's safe to say they want to keep prices down on these or the price of skids because unapproachable to the average guy and they don't sell, or sell very well at any rate.

Just my .02 anyway.

 

So... what can you do?

Invest 1000$ on a welder and hood, a chop saw, an oxy/acetylene torch, and some steel and have at her. You might learn a few things along the way, you'll have skids you can call your own, you'll have tools and skills for future projects, and a fun way to pass the time.

FWIW I used a small 110v mig, a hole saw, had the plate sheared to my specs, an air cut off wheel, chop saw, grinder, washers, tube, a huge crescent. Didn't even need a torch though it could be handy.

Cut out basic design, notched everything that needed bent. Bent using crescent wrench or brute force (clamp to a beam and push if you have to). Welded back up all the notches. Welded on tube and capped with washers. Had to mount it on truck before I could weld up the notches to make sure I got the angle of the bends right.

I went with Relentless skids for t-case and mid skid but you could come up with basic designs and fab them yourself using the same methods above.

You could even use a super strong alloy as long as it could be welded.

 

What kind of steel are you using to fabricate your skids?

 

Honestly man I only made the one myself. I've helped Eric make some of his but I haven't purchased any steel for him, I know he gets pickled and oiled hot roll from PDM, a big supplier out west here.

I got my plate from a smaller operation that sheared it all for me, 3/16 mild steel plate. Probably A36 but I didn't ask. If you intend to go that route you can ask for prices for whatever size plate you want in different alloys, and they ought to be able to tell you if you can weld it with any process or whatever. You could get an AC stick machine pretty cheap btw, or a flux core mig wouldn't be too bad either.

Any metal supplier ought to be able to tell you tensile strength, price, and what to weld it with. They also should be able to either cut you a piece with a plasma/laser or just shear it.

I had enough 3/16 plate to make my IFS for 50$ otd sheared to spec.

Honestly I'd just get the cheapest unless you intend to really wail on your skids. Mild 3/16 will hold up just fine.

Check prices on 7gauge too.

 

Did you bend that part with your ground clamped to it? If you did thats a damn fine job with a crescent. Looks like you could put a straight edge to it. Maybe its the thick steel but seems every time I have done something like this the edge gets all wavy from bending.

After doing it once and you had to do it again would you do the bending or just use separate plates welded together?

 

Nah, I lied about that part. I used the crescent for the sides. Notched the very front. The other two main bends I had a little help. The guys who have done this before used a post with c-clamps and brute force. I used a brake but it's not really designed for that thick of steel so it didn't work all that well, it took a few of us to really force it. Notching and then welding back up is the way to go.

I'd do that and then probably mount it, find where I could weld in some angle iron or some bracing and weld that all in.

Tough as nails.

 

I came across BudBuilt skids, I like the idea of the IFS skid protecting the lower control arm cams. Anyone have their skids? what do you think - pros / cons.

 

I do.
Full set except for the gas tank skid...
Took a total beating my first trip down a purple trail at Rausch Creek.
Took a sledge to straighten them back out.
Fit without rerouting exhaust y-pipe.
Lots of Pros - only con is I believe there should be some additional cross supports welded in - but that's only because I abused them.
I just put the mid skit & transfercase skid back on this past Friday for another trip to RC.
Good Product.

 

i think that's a major shortfall of every skid manufacturer. plate steel (when oriented as we do for our skids) is weakest in the direction rocks and other obstructions try to bend it. it is very simple and easy to add cross braces. this can be as simple as welding in some 90* angle longitudinally across the upper side of the skid. it ads a significant amount of strength, and if engineered properly, can allow you to use a slightly thinner steel, with a combination of plate and bracing yielding a lighter skid with equal strength and protection as the heavier pure plate skid.