4x4 Snow Question

But they drive like assholes on the road normally, nothing changes except that they feel even more bad ass. So we have established that people are douche bags...regardless of the season.

 

Has anyone else noticed how quickly these laws spread around the world? Either all these people have the same idea at nearly the same time, or some international organization is orchestrating it. These winter tire laws started in Europe (Germany, etc) just 5-6 years ago, quickly spreading East (Eastern Europe, etc) and West (evidently Canada based on the above). Now several states in this country are considering the same.

As I discovered in Germany, this gets expensive very fast. Not only did you have to buy the tires & rims (which went up in price quickly), but you also had to change those tires twice a year (which was first free, then increasing to $250) along with the hassle of storing the tires (which dealers were gladly willing to do - for $350).

Perhaps not surprising, the winter accident rates in Germany did not decrease even one percent (despite consumers as a whole spending many hundreds of millions). The small difference noted was ultimately attributed to increasing gas prices (drivers traveling less).

 

Ok now that's pretty freaking stupid. Most places and/or cities don't get enough snow or have good enough snow removal to warrant requiring dedicated snow tires. It's the morons that drive up in the mountains in the middle of a winter storm or on dangerous snow-packed in their Honda civics with stock tires that make me mad.

 

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. . . Have my first 4x4 in a long time and might learn something here . . .
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Even if that were true, if they're really correct about the abilities of their vehicles (able to drive fast on snow or ice), they wouldn't be in the ditch (none of them).

Anyway, that perspective isn't just based on the number of vehicles in ditches. Instead, it's also based on observations of other 4x4 drivers (driving too fast in those conditions, sliding around on the roadways, accidents, etc), along with my own experiences of just how quickly a 4x4 can slide in those conditions.

 

You make too many assumptions. I have driven in these conditions more than many have driven on dry asphalt. Much of it has been in mountainous areas with curves every hundred feet. Much of it has been in short wheel based / high CG vehicles. Often it has been in terrible weather. If you drive that much on those roads things happen eventually. I have slid off the road badly enough to damage myself or the vehicle 3 times that I can remember. Two were caused by my error. One was caused by another vehicle which I avoided hitting, but still went into the ditch. One resulted in 16 stitches in my head. All three happened at less than 30 mph. You can paint me inexpereinced all you want, but I have the scars to prove otherwise. Nothing will ever make driving in these conditions safe. The only question is how you can skew the odds in your favor. Sure, you can find isolated incidents where some of this technology might have made a positive difference. From what I have seen there are more incidents where it actually contributes to the problems. The more experienced you are, the more likely that is to happen. That is my opinion based on my experience, and you can take it or leave it. It doesn't mean I never expect to have problems. I have seen the technology advance over the years from the very first mechanical ABS to the computer controlled stability devices we have now. Hell, the first two vehicles I owned had 4 wheel drum brakes! It has gotten better, no doubt. It is not good enough yet that I feel safer with VSC or ABS than without it. I welcome the day when that changes. Again, that's my opinion. Nobody needs to listen to it. I respect your opinion too, and wish you safe travels.

 

I only did that once lol. And old news, I believe I've had a pretty successful first year with my 4wd taco Bitch I think I'm past the welcome to 4x4 stage haha.

Also, I'm goin wheelin Sunday! With a locked 4r, an open and lifted Cherokee a guy just picked up, and possibly a lt ranger haha. Gonna go explore the Boise Forrest

 

So back to topic, I now know about as much as I did before. Drive slow, take what the conditions give you, maybe a little less. 4Hi is ok if the road is wet. Going straight on the wet highway in 4Hi is even better. 4 will get you going and maybe pull you through something crappy. If you're on ice, a lot if times your can end up hosed.

Safety systems are good to a point. Don't treat them like performance enhancers - drive like a old lady and MAYBE they'll save your ass. Maybe.

 

In NJ I think I'd wear the tires down super fast. It's not like the roads here are garbage for months on end. Judging by the number of responses, I sure picked a good one to get folks all fired up!

 

Not necessary at all. You don't need a set of dedicated snow tires. A good set of all terrains will work perfectly fine.

Basically. If you are driving in the winter and its going from snow to slush to wet pavement to slush there is no problem keeping it in 4wd, you aren't going to harm anything. If it starts to bind you will know, so just back off a bit. The truck will handle snow great, just take it easy and remember to never slam on the breaks. Your throttle can get you out of many hairy problems. If you start to slide out of a turn give it some gas and steer out.

 

It's confirmed, there was statistics about it here in Quebec. The issue is drivers are overconfident because they have a 4x4. So, during snowstorms, they drive like if it was sunny day on summer.

Also, they drive like cars, but tend to forget that 4x4 has a higher center of gravity, so, according to statistics, they have 4 more chances to land upside down.

We have more compact cars than SUV and pick-up combined here. Gas is costly (cost today is 1.45$ per liter, which makes around 5.50$ US gallon).

 

What I'm trying to say is: electronics doesn't make intelligent driver an idiot. They are tools to help us. You are against electronics, and that's fine. Never questionned your driving abilities.

It's like saying: screwdrivers are for pussies, I can remove screws with my bare hands. Sure, you can, but you'll need more effort to get same results. That was my point.

However, there are some badly designed electronics and I'm first to agree with you: ABS on Tacoma is so bad that I deactivate it each winter. Previous car has ABS and I was okay with it, it was predicable and I could act accordingly and on time. I even got cars without electronics. On Tacoma, I just can't stand it, it's so unpredictable and too sensitive. I avoided some accidents because of ABS, thing I never lived it with previous cars. I even tried to learn Tacoma ABS behavior in parking lot, but cannot understand it nor predict when it'll kicks in. I suppose ABS systems on Tacoma are like women: I'll never understand it

Can't talk about VSC, never tried it but it seems that it's also badly designed according to posts here.

What's strange is I'm a frequent user of dirt roads (primary, secondary and tertiary) because I have a hunt camp out there and ABS never kicked it. On snow, forget it, on mountainous area, where my house is located, it's always kicks in on situations I don't expect it and should't kicks in.

Some cars has better designed electronics and I can confirm that they works well, since previous cars got them (abs, stability control, hill control and all). In other words, don't generalize.

 

I wonder if the ABS and VSC systems have been updated model year to model year. Seems like it would be something firmware related / software?

 

They both suck balls on snow

 

New update:

pull fuse
drive truck

 

or get a 1st gen, problem solved. no driver aids getting in the way in the first place. If you crash it's your own dumb fault.

 

My 2009 manual says to slow to 62mph or less to engage from H2 to H4. Also says can shift back to H2 at any speed. Seems crazy to mess with the 4x at that speed.

 

Ah, I see where we parted ways, and yes I did make a statement that was too broad and inflammatory. My apologies for that. I'm not against electronics based on any principle. I'm for whatever works, and people should decide for themselves whether what they have makes them safer or not. That will be different for every person and vehicle. Obviously, I haven't driven every system out there, but the tacoma systems are not so good. I think we agree that blindly relying on such devices is risky. You touched on the thing that puts me off of most about these devices and that is the inability to predict what they will do. In the seconds that I have to correct a situation, I do not want that uncertainty thrown in. Take care

 

it is IMO. I come to stop to activate it. maybe thats why mine still works great while other guys I wheel with have had multiple issues

 

You come to a complete stop to enguage 4hi? That's pretty unnecessary. There is absoluly nothing wrong with engaging it on the fly.