How will these do on the low end?

dude that system will be nothing short of miraculous, those focal K2's are so sweeeeet, wish i had the money for those! in the future for my next system and if you find a way to fit 2 10w3's with doing to much to your truck and the seats still fold, PLEASE LET ME KNOW lol

yea i do agree that JL charges a bit much, but i buy from a whole saler so i guess that doesnt apply to me i got each 8w3 for 110$ a piece

hahaha nicely put i like that!

 

See I've always been SPL. I like pressure and LOTS of it. I had 4 Cerwin Vega Stroker 18's in a Honda CRX and it was INTENSE!.

I've been moving to SQ over the years, but miss having extreme SPL. I'm in the process of building a custom ported box for my Orion HCCA 15 and having it made so I can take it in and out of the back seats and swap when I need too. Need 4 people in the truck, use the shallow 12's.. Me only, throw in the 15 and let the bass PUMP.

With the sundowns I was so impressed with how much bass came out of the 12's vs my Type-R. Was it as clean, hell no. But the same setup I normally use I swapped a Sundown and the bass was at least 2-3x's harder. Very impressive SPL subs. And since most people don't care about SQ, they just want to shake things, sundown is the way to go.

 

This is false. Cone area helps but a well designed small subwoofer in a proper box will blow you away. Proof point: My Lexus IS300 had four 6.5" subs powered by a 600watt amplifier. All the car audio friends I competed with used to laugh about it. They'd send someone over to my car and tell them they HAD to hear my setup. Said it banged like crazy. They'd get in and I'd turn it up and they'd be floored by the accuracy of the base and the output. Then I'd turn it down and ask what they thought I had in the trunk. Typical responses were "a pair of tens?" or "a really nice 12?". You could hear their jaw hit the pavement when I popped the trunk...

(please excuse the foam roller...I need it for stretching to run)

Also not true. A 12 can sound every bit as good as a 6.5" sub. The problem more often than not is that people buy a box that "fits 12's" but they don't know the volume or the tuning. Then they think they can throw any 12" speaker in there and have it sound good.

The speed at which a speaker moves is called frequency. Frequency is the same as the notes you hear. A 12" speaker will play 1000hz; it has the ability to move that fast. What you're referring to is transient response which is largely determined by the weight of the cone and moving mass (mms). A lighter moving mass will be able to accelerate and decelerate much quicker.


In the end Brad, just make sure the box is ported. The tuning frequency will protect the woofers from overexcursion and it will also aid in low end response. Meaning, you'll get way more low end output (more boom). If Marv needs design volume/tuning specs I'd be more than happy to model the enclosure specs for you. Just PM me the full ts parameters of your woofers.

 

You certainly sound educated in the field, however I think one extremely important bit of information is being forgotten here. This box is being installed INSIDE the cab with the passengers. A ported enclosure will undoubtedly produce better lows from those 8s, but the increase air flow front the port will sound horrible when inside the cab with the listener and to make it worse, the port is forward firing. Even if you managed to face it sideways, downward, or even backward, it just won't sound good inside the truck. The subs are too close to the listened to fully develop their full sound curve and deliver accurate frequency response as it is, I think porting a box in this particular scenario would only add to this challenge.

 

your point about those 6.5's is perfect for the point im pushing too... size should not fool you by any means... only thing im gonna have to go the other way on, it porting the box... will it make the lows better? yes.. but will it affect the quality? yes it will... in the perfect sealed enclosure built for these which mr marv is doing for me, these 8's will respond perfect, slam hard, and hit the lows decent enough for me... besides to go along with proforce, porting it will bring in so many other aspects to account for, not to mention cost more also.. in different circumstances, ported boxes are great, in mine? i feel like sealed is the best way to go, and marv will agree bc i discussed this with him for about an hour on the fone

 

I agree with you to a point. I believe a shallow 12 could keep up as well as a 10 merely because it won't have as much excursion. I think you contradicted yourself in the second paragraph tho, 12s are larger and heavier moving mass. My old JL 12s COULD keep up with the beat at lower volumes....but when they start hitting harder...it just falls behind. I also agree with your statement about volume...this has a huge effect.

 

From what I have read, a Sundown SD-2 10" will out do a JL W3 10".

 

In regards to SPL, yes. When considering SQ though, not even close

 

Actually the ported box wont make things worse. The "airflow" noise is the result of the velocity of the air reaching a speed at which it's audible. It can be calculated and accounted for. It's actually quite easy. You just need to make sure you have enough port area in relation to the cone area and displacement of the subwoofer. I can show y'all how if you're interested.

As I stated before in a PM; sealed boxes are really only good for one thing and that's saving space. If you have enough space it's almost always better to port. There are rare occasions when it's not but this is not one of them.

Here's the interesting thing about designing a ported box....cone movement is directly proportional to how low a note you're playing. Meaning, the lower the note, the further the cone has to move to reproduce it. Whee you hit the tuning frequency of an enclosure the speaker will move hardly at all because the enclosure is effectively loading the cone. So the idea is to tune the box to a point where the speaker needs help controlling it's movement. If you do this in the proper way the cone will have to move way less to produce even more output which lowers distortion across the board.

As I stated before, if you want me to model the two different styles of enclosure and overlap the frequency response so you can see what you'd be missing with a sealed box I'd be happy to do so. Just send me the TS parameters of the subs.

The larger cone is not always heavier. That's one of the things that makes a GOOD woofer...a strong and LIGHT cone. When trying to reproduce low notes a larger cone is ALWAYS better. Think of it this way, a speaker's job is to displace air. You can do that by one of two ways. 1 large cone moving half as far or one small cone moving twice as far. The end result is the same but the smaller speaker has to actually travel farther to produce the same output.

 

Agreed.

 

Sub-30Hz Behavior
Sealed box designs and single-reflex bandpasses are much better at controlling excursion at extremely low-frequencies (below 30Hz). For this reason, they can usually handle more power in these frequency ranges than ported designs and dual-reflex bandpass designs, which makes them less prone to low-frequency induced speaker damage. At frequencies below the tuning frequency of the port, a woofer in a ported box (or a dual-reflex bandpass) starts to de-couple. This means that the controlling function of the enclosure begins to disappear. The collapse is gradual rather than immediate, but at some point below the tuning of the port, the speaker behaves as if it were operating without an enclosure and suffers from potentially damaging over-excursion. (This is why it is a good practice to use an infrasonic filter when running a ported enclosure or a dual-reflex bandpass. JL Audio "Slash Series" subwoofer amplifiers offer this feature, as do many good quality active crossovers).
Related to the loss of enclosure damping, ported and dual-reflex bandpass designs also exhibit higher distortion levels at very low frequencies than sealed or single-reflex bandpass designs. The importance of this is questionable, however, since little program material extends to below 30Hz.
Sealed enclosures and single-reflex bandpass designs have a rather shallow low-frequency roll-off rate of around 12dB/octave, whereas ported enclosures and dual-reflex bandpasses typically exhibit 18- 24dB/octave roll-off. For this reason, sealed enclosures and single-reflex bandpass boxes can have much higher -3dB points (the frequency at which the output dips 3dB below the reference efficiency of the speaker) than ported designs while still producing very good ultra-low frequency output.
30-80Hz Behavior
This is the frequency range that is most important because it encompasses the vast majority of low-frequency information present in music. Serious audiophiles assign much more importance to good performance in this range than in the extreme low-frequency range.
At moderate power levels, all of these enclosure types exhibit pretty decent manners. The ported box and the bandpass designs produce less distortion than the sealed box, but the difference is marginal.
At higher power levels things change considerably. Since the ports in a dual-reflex bandpass control cone motion over a wider range of frequencies, the dual-flex bandpass produces the least distortion and exhibits the best power-handling characteristics. The ported enclosure and the single-reflex bandpass also do a very good job producing high-levels of undistorted bass output, again due to reduced cone motion in this frequency range. Bringing up the rear in this category is the sealed enclosure, which produces higher levels of distortion at high power levels. There is a common misconception that ported designs produce more distortion than sealed boxes. As you can see, this is not entirely accurate; it depends on the frequency and the power level.
Transient Response
Transient response refers to the ability of the subwoofer system to reproduce quick changes (transients) in the program material accurately. This is often interpreted as "tightness" or "looseness," which might be a dangerous terminology, since many people are more influenced by tonal characteristics when asked to qualify the "tightness" of the bass. Transient response is actually a function of accuracy in relation to time, rather than frequency. In music, sounds like drum strikes and quick bass guitar pulses are good tests of a subwoofer system's transient performance. A system with good transient response will reproduce these sounds with clear, "tight" definition. A system with poor transient response tends to blur these sounds over time, due to the speaker's inability to stop and start quickly enough to react to the signal accurately.
It is generally accepted that an optimized sealed enclosure exhibits the best transient response characteristics. The control provided by the air-spring in a good sealed system contributes to generally outstanding transient behavior (Please note that at very high power levels, the increased distortion can overshadow this advantage).
A ported enclosure can also achieve good transient behavior, but it will never be as good as an optimized sealed enclosure. It is possible, however, for a well-designed ported enclosure to have better transient response characteristics than sealed enclosures with higher Qtc's (above 1.0). The specific alignment of the sealed and ported enclosures plays a huge role in determining the transient characteristics of each individual subwoofer system.
Single-Reflex bandpass designs can also have good transient characteristics if their bandwidth is fairly narrow, but again, not as good as an optimized sealed enclosure. As the bandwidth becomes wider, their transient response can degrade considerably.
Dual-reflex designs generally exhibit inferior transient response characteristics when compared to the other designs. As with single-reflex designs, narrower bandwidths produce better transient performance than wider ones.
Efficiency
The term "efficiency" refers to the ability of a speaker system to convert electrical energy (power from the amplifier) into acoustic output. Consequently, it also serves as an indication of which system will produce the loudest possible output given the same size amplifier (assuming they can all handle the power). For the purposes of this comparison, we are looking at efficiency in the 40-80Hz octave.
Generally speaking, the most efficient enclosures are the two narrow-bandwidth bandpass designs with the dual-reflex version having a slight edge. Next in line, the wide-bandwidth dual-reflex and the ported enclosure exhibit very good efficiency as well. The sealed enclosure and the wide-bandwidth single-reflex bandpass are the least efficient designs.

Midbass Transition
For sub-bass to sound natural, the system must have good mid-bass capability as well. These two are interrelated because harmonic components of the sounds produced by instruments that play in the sub-bass range must be accurately reproduced in the mid-bass range for a system to sound accurate.

In car audio, we normally don't have the luxury of using very large drivers to reproduce mid-bass. For this reason, the ability of a subwoofer system to smoothly transition to the mid-bass region becomes very important to achieving top-notch fidelity.

The sealed and ported enclosures usually produce the smoothest mid-bass transition because the speakers play directly into the listening environment. Wide bandwidth bandpass designs are a little more ragged, but still deliver good mid-bass reinforcement. The narrow bandwidth bandpass designs can create serious problems because their high-frequency roll-off can begin as low as 75-80 Hz, and the amplitude of their response peaks is very high, which necessitates the use of larger, very capable mid-bass speakers in order to blend smoothly with the sub-bass.
There Is No Free Lunch
As you can see by the comparison, no enclosure design is superior in all respects. They all have advantages and disadvantages. Analyzing the characteristics of each enclosure type will help you decide which enclosure type is right for your application. An informed decision involves an analysis of the following factors: the space that you want to make available in your car for the enclosure, your performance expectations (loudness, tonal qualities, etc.) the amount of amplifier power you will be using, and of course, your budget. Top-notch car audio specialists will weigh all the factors and consider all enclosure types before recommending a subwoofer system. Many will even show you specific data to support their suggestions.

Remember that the information presented here assumes that each enclosure type has been properly designed and executed. This means that the speaker and the enclosure are carefully matched as a system. The skills of a competent designer, installer and cabinet builder are every bit as important to the end result as the design of the box or the type of woofers that you buy.

Despite the very general scope of this piece, we hope it leaves you with a better understanding of subwoofer systems. At the very least, we hope that the next time you hear someone say "whatever you do, don't port the box" or "sealed boxes don't sound good," you will ask them to thoroughly explain their position. It could be amusing.
http://www.jlaudio.com/header/Suppo...Enclosure-Type+Performance+Comparision/287535

 

how do you think the 10w3 stealth box holds up in the tacoma? tight response im sure,but sometimes i like it loud. will it rattle my eyeballs?

 

Copy and pasting from the internet is worthless if you have no idea what you just posted. I stopped reading after the first 2 long paragraphs because regardless of whether it is a reliable source or not, none of that proves that Porter or bandpass is better than sealed. Do you know the difference between ported and bandpass? Or dual and single reflex? From years of first hand experience and training, I'll agree that ported and bandpass boxes hit hard and can get loud AF, but in terms of overall harmonic distortion, sound quality and clarify with the least amount of frequency loss, sealed is the best.

Also, The Stealthbox has two 10w1 not w3. It doesn't hit near as hard if I put those in a ported box, but it cleaner. Yes is very very tight and crisp however. I can turn it up and make it rattle or tune it right and keep it Clean. Depends how its tuned, volume level, and music type. Is their louder? Hell yah there are plenty of louder and better subs and enclosures than my stealth box, but I went for quality over anything else. And for what can reasonably fit behind my back seat without major vehicle modification, its pretty dam clean sound.

 

10w3 stealth lmao

 

that was from the people that engineered JL AUDIO subs. Right off the web sight. dont understand why you are so insulting, everyone has an opinion of how things could be done.
PRO force.......there are a lot of variables ,,,,mostly personal taste. and I gave an opinion.
I sincerely doubt you would talk to someone like that in person bro. so Why would you do it here?

 

I am not trying to be insulting. I am stating facts that I understand and can back up. You are stating facts based on how you interpreted what you read. I get the feeling that you drew your conclusions based on what you read, but you don't fully understand what it is you are reading. I admire your passion for car audio, but I am simply trying to set the record straight so that someone who really needs this info isn't confused by contradicting statements. Like I said, the information you provided is great, and I appreciate that, but if you don't fully understand the concept, then you shouldn't give such solid advice. Your original statement should have gone more along the lines of "I think from my personal experience...." but instead you made it sound like factual information instead of preference. I wasn't the only one who completely disagreed with you... every one of us did. That is because what was said was your opinion, not fact. I may have reacted more harsh than others because I have a very strong passion for mobile audio and have years of personal experience as well as training, and its upsetting to see people spread info that is false. To make it worse, after 3-4 people said you were wrong, you continued to try and defend your statement with a quote in which you can't fully interpret. My apologies if I came off as a jerk, but for future posts, please do not give such strong "factual" statements based on information you don't clearly understand or may have misinterpreted. That's all there is too it man. Please continue to study, research, ask questions, experiment, and educate your self as a mobile audio enthusiast, but keep your information strictly opinion based until you know for 110% certainty.

 

And just to clarify further, please continue to share your opinion, everyone is entitled to one. Opinions are much appreciated, but educated opinions are more valuable. Just don't mislead people into thinking that your personal preference is the only option, because that's how I, as well as others, understood your statement.

 

The information that Karm posted is very relevant and correct.

When you play too far below the tuning frequency of the enclosure the speaker unloads and will reach xmax very quickly. The trick is to put a subsonic frequency crossover on the sub so that potentially damaging frequencies won't reach it. This is also why you seen tuning most often around the 30hz region. There isn't much musical content below 30hz so if you put the tuning right there you provide the best protection for the cone where there's the most low end content.

Check out this model I did a while back. It's of a 12" subwoofer for home theater. The first graph is frequency response (board flat is gooooood). The bottom chart is excursion or how far the cone moves. The red line on the bottom graph is the mechanical limit of the speaker. As you can see, as the frequency gets lower the cone moves more and more. Then all of a sudden the cone movement almost stops. Since the cone movement is kept to a minimum the distortion is also VERY low at that point where in a sealed box it would be very high. Now look at the frequency that happens at.....now look at the tuning frequency of the box. They are the same. But again, as you can see. Below that......it's toast!

 

Great info. I have been extensivly researching the pros and cons of an 8 over a 10...

Can't wait to see the pics and hear how you like it!

 

being a 10" guy and most my freinds having 12"s i cant help but be skeptical but i do feel these will pack a hard ass punch... all the reviews speak for themselves so we'll see