Alabama thread!

I meant ignoring that you stated vac and fill of an AC unit without a recapture machine is illegal.

Uh... but since you brought it up, why on earth are you charging $559 in parts? Especially considering you didn't even list replacing the evaporator core. An expansion valve is 20 bucks brand new, so is a drier. You bought me a theoretical $520 compressor? Because you just said that doesn't include tax. I didn't account for r134, so ok, $500.

Miata TX valve is accessible via the glove box, 4 bolts. You do not have to take the dash apart. Yet it's fair to charge me 5.2 hours labor?

 

Apologies in advance... I'm about to be an insufferable ass.

Isn't this what you're bitching about?

Lawyered!

<Please read this and imagine me laughing out loud while typing it. I enjoy these types of debate, and I mean it in good fun.>

 

God, I don't know why I can't just let this go. It's a sickness I have, apparently.

Just because I feel a need to clarify, the first point was against bill stating quoting 1.4 hours for a job that "by the book" takes 15 minutes maximum and even accounting for whatever it is that he's accounting for by his own admission takes 30-40 minutes is reasonable. Quote me the time it takes you to do the work. If that's not enough money, charge me more and tell me why.

The second point I was making was that saying "I didn't really charge you X per hour" because the book says Y hours for this job is nonsense. You're charging me a price, I'm paying you for it, and it took a certain amount of time. Labor cost over time it took you is what you charged me per hour, no matter how you want to spin the numbers.

All that being said, since other shit I said has been clearly misconstrued:
Yes, an experienced mechanic should be able to charge more than an inexperienced one for his time. Of course. Doing a job should also take less time if his time is more valuable because of his experience, though.

Maybe this is really an indictment of how mechanic's fees are presented, and I realize Bill and everyone else in the field has to work within the system, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with the system whether he has a choice in following it or not.

I as a customer would much prefer it if I simply got un-gamed numbers. If you need to charge more for labor for something because the equipment costs, you should be able to directly show me that via adding a fee on or changing your rate or something. The notion that it should all be crammed into hours is pretty silly.

Also, if "the book" is clearly wrong on the time it takes to do a job based on me doing the job, then I think I have every right to bitch about that and do my own work. I am not going to squabble over 9 hours vs 10, but I will absolutely complain if, as above with the expansion valve, I know something took me a half an hour and I'm being billed for 5.2.

Now, miatas are a lot easier to change expansion valves on than other cars. 5.2 is probably reasonable if the whole dash has to be ripped up. The mechanic should be able to, within the law, (I realize he may not be able to now, i'm saying this is what should happen in a perfect world) simply bill me less because I have an easier car to work on. It chaps my ass that instead he charges me the same rate as everyone else when the procedure takes him a fraction of the time because he can access the same part with hours less work and dozens of fewer screws and bolts removed.

 

I share the same sickness. I can't let shit go either.

I agree with nearly all of that, it's an imperfect system. The one piece that I'd argue you're not taking into account is that, in many cases, the garage's system must account for varying skill levels of many mechanics. Many times there are multiple mechanics who work on different days or hours, and they don't have a project manager (God, the overhead of THAT would be something!) who assigns resources. Quoting book price is one way to average out the pool so that they don't end up upside down on a job.

There's not really a reliable way to say, "John can do a compressor in 30 minutes, but Joe takes 4 hours, so we'll get John to do it and quote the customer 30 minutes so they'll be happy." Because then John might go on a bender and not show up for work the next day. Believe me, my uncle had TONS of trouble finding good mechanics that would show up for work on time, sober, and stay employed for any length of time. He had 3 that were rock stars that worked for him for years, well into their 50's. They could do stuff in way less than book, worked like dogs, and he paid them well. They took a TON of pride in their work. The younger guys though seem to be more transient.

 

Where shall I start?

These are all taken from the EPA.gov website. So yeah, they are pretty strict on the laws. How am I lying here?

As for why am I charging $559 in parts, that is the cost of NEW parts. The compressor, TXV, drier, and R134a. TXVs are showing list price of $59.50, driers at $31.50. The compressors are freaking expensive at $449. I use a good supplier that offers a limited lifetime warranty on the compressor.

 

Yeah, neither of us seem to be able to let this go. As for the TXV in a miata only taking 30 minutes, how about we get more specific. What year was yours? I can look at an S10 pickup from 1995 and replace the heater core in an hour, but the 1996 heater core takes almost 8 hours. I based all my numbers on a 2009 Miata, base model. I don't have one here, and I have not PERSONALLY needed to replace a TXV on one. So I am simply bringing up the numbers by my estimator guide program.

Here is another prime example of the billing system. Let's use something other than automotive. Let's look at flooring. You got to store A and they say they can lay out your hardwood floor in the living room for $2500. Store B says they can do it for $2500, and store C can do it for $2500. Now store A says their crew can do it in 16 hours, Store B says they can do it in 12 hours, and store C says in 14 hours. If ALL OTHER ASPECTS of the job are identical, who are you going to go with? I would choose Store B, so that the job is done faster. Should I expect to pay them less because it takes them less time to do the job? No. They just are able to do the job faster. Now let us assume worst case and the job ends up taking 20 hours. You STILL will only pay $2500. And store B has to deal with the loss.

It is the same with Mechanic work. Replacing the engine as an example. Shop A- $3500, Shop B - $3500, Shop C - $3500. If shop A can do it in half the time, would you expect then to charge you less in labor?


Be back later on. Have to finish a clutch job, which, by the way was quoted at 4 hours, but has unfortunately taken me longer because a bolt broke off and the new one just arrived. Not charging the customer more labor just because it is taking longer to do the job...

 

You keep glossing over anything inconvenient to you. For example: "venting ozone-depleting substances used as refrigerants (generally CFCs and HCFCs) into the atmosphere"

An empty system has no refrigerant. I never said you can legally spray refrigerant everywhere, but if it already leaked out before you started work on it, there's nothing to vent or recapture.

Secondly, if you're spending 60 bucks on a miata exp valve, you're getting ripped. I'm not checking rockauto, but mine was 20 bucks. Thirdly, this whole time we were talking reman'd compressors. Lastly, I am finally not giving a fuck and going to let this go.

Perhaps a way to rephrase what I said to Keith that won't get you so pissy: AC work is mostly labor, and if you pay a shop you're gonna pay out your ass.

$1300 to get what I had done? No thanks. The cars only worth 3 grand. $200 in parts and some elbow grease? Sure thing.

 

I see what you're saying, and that sounds like a really shitty thing for a shop to deal with. Cold-hearted as it is though, that isn't the customer's problem. Employee #2 should either be fired or paid 1/4 of Employee #1. I do realize that this is not practical in most cases and that good employees are hard to find, and I don't have a solution for that. However, jerkwad mechanics don't have to pretend like its fair either. You can at least admit that there's a problem, but it's difficult to solve.

I understand rounding average times to guess at what it's going to be, and I understand that not every mechanic or job is exactly the same. Y'all are acting like I'm nitpicking over just a little bit here.

In the miata exp valve example (it's a 97 btw), we're not squabbling over peanuts: even if we round up to say an hour instead of 5.2, that's still $378 I will come right out and say that I don't think the mechanic deserves, because he's only putting in an hour of work. That's some real money right there (1/4 of the total repair cost!), and I think it's utter nonsense that I should foot the bill because of how billing is done.

 

Welp boys, this has been fun. I just opened a beer and the computer is shutting off in 3...2..

 

You continue to gloss over the fact that shops do not search junk yards for used parts, that might work. How many times has Bill said this?

If you're going to argue your point; You have to argue what parts would have cost you, had you purchased them New or Reman.


Shops are not going to install the same cheap used parts that you used, and give a warrenty to back them up.


If your junkyard compressor burns up in a week, well then you got what you paid for. If it's lasts a long time, Great, you got lucky. As for a shop, they cannot take that chance.

 

First off, yes, a HUGE difference between a 2009 and a 1997. This was the first time you have mentioned the year, even after I have repeatedly mentioned for me to make a proper estimate I would need specifics so that I could try to see if the said price was excessive or not.

And YOU continue to try and argue apples (You buying a used, junk yard compressor) to oranges (A shop quoting a new or reman) My compressor that I quoted WAS for a quality one, with a lifetime warranty. Did the shops there quote you a reman compressor, or did the job quote a used one?

Just because YOU can install a compressor in an hour on your 97 does not mean that everyone can. Also your installation evidently went easy, since it only took you that long. I have seen compressor jobs take 3 hours when they should only take 1 because bolts are seized up. guess what? The shops eat that in most cases. You can't compare ONE time of you doing a compressor job to a shop that has to do hundreds of these a year in some cases. You have to realize that when YOU do the job, if it messes up, then it is YOUR problem. If a shop does the job, THEY are responsible for fixing it if something goes bad. That can get very costly. Parts fail, and that is just part of the business. We accept this.

As for me spending $60 on a TXV, I'm not. That is the customer cost. My cost ON A 2009 MIATA, as I had said I was using an an example car, was $40. Guess what, I am in the business of making money. I am not going to buy a part for $40 and sell it to YOU for $40. That is just stupid. Maybe you CAN find a TXV for a 2009 Miata for $20. And if so, you got a good deal. but then again, what kind of warranty is on the part? Who is responsible if it fails? ME!
I can buy clutches for a Toyota Tacoma all day long for $100. But they suck, and they fail quickly. So I buy better quality parts for my customers.

Now yes, I will agree that a $1500 price tag for a compressor job on a 97 Miata is excessive. But again, I don't have a full list of every part and an explanation of their labor charges. Perhaps they have it justified. Hell I don't know. I can only comment on the information I get.

 

How bout them GATORS!!! Lets go GATORS!!!


J/k you guys have been awful busy in here today. I haven't had time to check into those restaurants as of yet. But still liking the idea of meeting up with a few bama folk.

 

Your reading comprehension needs work. I said approx 1500 labor, 2000 total. I accounted for the cost of a $400 compressor. I don't recall the full breakdown.

whatever guys, I don't understand your point. Mine is simple, without even getting me an evap core, bill said 1350 or whatever. With evap core, the quotes I got were around 2 grand.

I have a working system for 200 in not tools, 400 total. If I wanted a new compressor, 550 in not tools. The choice is pretty damn obvious, I'll never be paying for anything but recapture of refrigerant.

 

I'm a Gator fan, one of very few in this state.

 

I am only a gator fan cause of the color of my truck. Not huge into sports, that's how I picked the steelers years ago cause I drove a yellow s10.

I was just trying to give everyone someone different to yell at, figured I'd find a bunch of gator haters in here.

 

I said around $1350 FOR A 2009 MODEL. Not for your 97 model.

 

Thanks! Ill be out here for another month working then it's back to GA!

 

So just going to be here a short time huh? What kind of work do you do?

 

Nope. I'm still here! All this A/C arguing is giving me a headache. Isn't this a place where we all chit chat and talk about anything. If you wanna argue, I think it should go to PM. I am actually surprised a moderator hasn't came in here and told them two to chill th F*** out! Lol.
Both parties have good arguing points. Yes, for a shop to fix an A/C system is pricey but for them to cover their ass and provide a warranty, which is what 100% of Americans want, most parts need to be replaced. This is why I choose, in some cases, to work on my own vehicles.
Now, Bill does stuff by the book because he HAS to. Jim, at your job ( whatever it is) you do stuff by your company's book because you HAVE to. Same goes to everybody on this forum, they HAVE to do stuff per their company's book.

Hell, I have to make sure that the chemicals that I put down dont get on the roads, sidewalks, or driveways because it will corrode and eat away at the asphalt/concrete and because my company can have a lawsuit against them and then I'm out of a job.
So, can we please get back to talking about whatever, EXCEPT THE PRICE OF A/C REPAIR! With that being said, why dont the both of you go put on some damn diapers, grab your pacifiers ( I can give y'all jakes if you need one) and go sit in a damn corner!

 

^^^ Nah, not a bad or really mean discussion. Very little name calling was involved.


Only way to get rid of a discussion if to start a conversation about something else.














I'm waiting........