Tacoma LSD questions

Typically though, if you overheat the system you are doing something wrong.... put the thing in 4 lo and lock the rear diff... they are there for a reason.

 

I live on a mountain in New Hampshire. We've had snow on the ground since Thanksgiving, and I have a very long, hilly, sometimes icey driveway. I've never had a lack of traction with my TRD Off Road (read: open diff). With good tires and 4x4 you shouldn't need any other traction enhancements.

 

ah well at that point.... cmon what do you expect!

and AFIK atrac is only good up to a certian mph regardless of rear locker or not.... it just doesnt work on the rear if its locked.

 

Hey Rock Lobster, that brings up a question I've had for awhile. If you had done the ywm, and used that in low range with the locker, do you think it would have given you something above 5mpg on the front end?

 

That's what I was hoping to hear. It's use, in my case is snow! Up here we deal with it measured in feet most of the time. Thank you.

 

This has been very helpful conversation, thank you. And I am please that the tenor of the conversation has remained cordial.

I am diabetic, I have a service dog. As part of his unwritten "performance contract" Christopher gets about 90 minutes supervised off leash every morning in Frick Park, under any and all weather conditions. After Christopher get his free time he is a lot better dog the rest of the day. Any number of people have told me they would like to comeback in their next life as my dog. Some folks say Christopher lives well.

Off road means different things to different people. I've worked with folks who enjoy breaking things and getting stuck. They drive in groups just so they will have 10 other folks to help them get unstuck. In contrast I made a living off road and I made a point never getting stuck because I neither wanted to pay a tow, spend the night, or walk out.

In my experience e-lockers that depend on using the vehicles brakes are next to worthless and the only good thing one can say about them is they add almost nothing to the cost of a vehicle.

Pittsburgh isn't NH but about every 10 years we get a +28" snow event. When we do Christopher still needs to take a schyte in Frick Park. I can't ask him to hold it. One of the amazing things of my life is at age 61 how many 5, 10, 25, 50 and 100 year weather events I lived through. Penn State is almost 160 years old and when I was attending we had the one "Snow Day"; The only snow day in all of Penn State's 159 year history. I still made it to class in my 1978 T/A, with a factory posi-trac unit and good snow tires. Where ever I go I just seem to attract deep snow, floods, hurricanes and other natural messes. I've learned to allow for them.

I know that in the trucks I have put lockers or true-trac units in I never had any problems in many decades of service. I am confident that Mr. Dilligaff82 from NH knows well how to drive in the snow. But the nice thing about a tru-trac is it makes every one look like an expert driver in the snow. I greatly appreciate that extra margin of safety and confidence it provides.

I was working outside of DC in NoVa as a foreman in a rock quarry and we got a record snow, +28" or better and their municipal plow trucks are regular half ton trucks with hardware store plows, not the big stuff you find anywhere in the northeast states.

The county called us and asked us to clear US1 one for them. We used our 2 large Hitachi stock yard front end loaders, one for each lane, with a Caterpillar 16G motor grader doing the final clean up behind them. It was me in front in my own GMC Jimmy with a tru-trac that pioneered the road for the road crew behind me.

A sensible person does not outfit a truck so that they can pioneer roads when the county road crew is overwhelmed. But as an engineer I tend to over due it. "What's the difference between an offensive and a defensive weapon?" Defensive weapons are belt fed, offensive weapons are chain feed. (joke) Folks see my personal computer and ask: "Am I supposed to genuflect or something?" I like going up a 12-14% grade in +30" of fresh snow without spinning a wheel. I could use my power amp to arc weld new teeth on a loader bucket. ;-)

Mr. Dilligaff82 , It's not so much what I can do with out, I like big safety factors and mechanicals that do their job very well with out worries about stress or heat or longevity issues.

Today I called Brent at drivetrain.com and he will get back to me. I also called Northwest Off Road however they are on a month long vacation.

I have always put a quality LSD in the rear, allowing that I could put one in the front axle if needed, I have never needed a second LSD for the front axle.

Mr BlueT, that was very helpful breakdown. To the extent that I don't need a lift kit, air over shocks ect I think I am better off with a non-TRD offroad truck and an Eaton Tru-trac. In the 1980's Detroit recommended against synthetic gear lub for their Tru-Trac. By Off-Road do you mean 4x4?

 

Welcome and sorry for you loss - Semper Fi -

 

I don't have any idea what is happening on the front tires, but I sure didn't see A-TRAC action. Maybe if we could see the other tires as well. When A-TRAC is 'active', the tires are locked together and you do need to put your foot down if the first effort doesn't rotate both tires... wake it up.

As for the A-TRAC not active on the front over 3 mph when the rear is locked, sure, and that is a plus if you want wheel spin, like in snow... but if you drop to 3 mph then you could be getting stuck, so the system goes active and locks the front tires until you are moving over 3 mph.

Click on my you tube (in my sig) of me pulling James up the Diablo Dropoff... that is A-TRAC + the rear locker. Now see me climbing Pancake Rock, that is A-TRAC only. Seantoobs (shown after me) actually went up first, and note how steep it is at that camera location... with the rear tire in the air at the bottom... I went up the same. Sean had a rear auto locker.

 

I had no idea what ATRAC is so I found this helpful discussion. I get annoyed not with truck owners but with all the manufactures. If you never need a LSD fine; but when you do, mechanical LSD have been doing an outstanding job for a very long time.

One of the secrets of a happy life is knowing what to ask for. A system like ATRAC will work fine only if you never really needed a LSD in the first place.

In the video I can't see all four wheels at the same time but at best when needed ATRAC is one wheel drive. In contrast a Tru-Trac will always put some power to both wheels proportioned on resistance. You can't put a real locker in the front axle, for most people it is not safe. But you can put a tru-trac in the front and either a tru-trac or a locker in the rear axle and with a little care you have a vehicle almost like a tank.

In the video the first obvious question would be can the hole be straddled or otherwise avoided? And the next question would be could it be filled in beforehand? No amount of rear wheel traction can lift a front wheel out of a hole. When a hole gets too deep and the chassis gets high centered even spinning the front wheel in the hole will not help.

To be honest I've never had to shovel a path to make it passable, or dig to recover my vehicle. But I was always hell on wheels picking a path to evade problems.

 

You've been asked this question before. With a locker in the rear does the ywm work for the front axle ABOVE 5 mph. We know a-trac doesn't! You didn't answer it then. You didn't now. Rock Lobster not only answered it, he showed us. Thanks again Rock Lobster.

 

Hmm not sure if they recomended against it synthetic but when I had one I used synthetic with out any problems. I know some people do but if you don't feel comfortable than use Dino oil.
My current LSD is Toyota mechanical and that thing hates synthetic with the passion. So I am stuck with regular oil, however I put Lucas 85-140 (for trucks) and so far so good.
TRD offroad is a package you get, that comes with some cosmetic items and Stronger ATRAC plus mechanical e-locker (e-locker as electronically activated but its mechanical, just uses push button to activate)
TRD offroad is great package if you dont want to deal with gear swaps or you leasing your truck.
Plus 2015 is probably last year of e-locker, I doubt 2016 model will have mechanical locker so if you want one thats probably the last year to get it.
Still TRD package will set you $3000-$4000 extra on the truck and for that money you can have dual ARB lockers with onboard air (which I would prefer over TRD package).
TRD offroad would probably suit your needs, and if you make simple mod to have e-locker available in 4H (not 4L only) conquering snow may not be that bad.
It comes down to what your target and how much want to spent.
Easiest and probably the cheapest way is to get SR5 and toss Truetrac on the back. It will work with traction control and it will work with out to the limit. But you also will have truetrac in 2wd.
More expensive is to go with TRD setup or ARB lockers.
Pick one and enjoy the truck

 

What I was getting at is for nearly all winter conditions, 4x4 and good tires will do the job. In the event of a major storm, or what have you, the TRD Off Road is equipped with ATRAC and a rear locker. 99% of the time you won't need them, but they're there when you do. As a former Marine, I understand and share your tendency for overkill. I also have a job that requires me to be ready to travel with 24/7 regardless of weather conditions, and I feel completely confident doing so in my TRD Off Road.

 

Advice from the makers of Tru-Trac was only put a LSD in the front axle of a vehicle that never sees service on road. I suspect that is lawyer driven advise. The Ford Raptor has LSD in both axles and a Tru Trac unit in the front axle.

Given way too much throttle a Tru Trac unit can hunt for traction; switching power from one wheel to the other and back every few seconds. Off road the behavior is a non issue' among the "Hold my beer and watch this" market segment it is a potential liability. In deep sand or mud, the effect is for one or both tires to roster tail flying schyte everywhere was you move forward.

Driven with the intent to get home not show off the Tru-Trac is invisible to the driver and on lookers. Both wheels move all the time. Most of the time the vehicle effortlessly walks through pretty bad stuff. I've been high centered a few times but with a little bit of rocking and catching the moment when the suspension is extended I've escaped. (Thank you Lawd Jesus)

I benefited from the experience of some sage like silverbacks in those days; one of whom advised me: "If you don't know how to drive in the first place the primary advantage of any type of LSD is that you may have 15 more miles to walk out when you get stuck."

I'm too cheap to bolder crawl, it looks like fun but I can't afford the constant body repairs. A Detroit locker is often used in automobile racing at high speeds. It is always working until the inside wheel is unloaded because you are in a corner. In the same way a True Trac works at all speeds until the inside rear wheel is unloaded in a corner.

It is also true that above some modest vehicle speed you don't need LSD ( you are not stuck) so most electrical LSD will kick out. Why would you want the brakes to work on only one wheel > 5 mph?

In 1981 True Trac was made by Detroit Gear not Eaton. The Detroit Gear engineers specifically advised against synthetic because the lubrication profile was just wrong for the way the worm gears need to work. About two years ago I put an Auburn LSD in my Tundra and Auburn specifically advised against synthetic. I use regular dino gear with a special Auburn additive, all per Auburn.

I like high quality synthetic lubs. I use them in my motor, transmission, transfer case, power steering, just not in my LSD.

When my Ford SHO had 50k I drained and tested every fluid. The power steering fluid was highly carbonized and was a very thick sludge. FMC has no maintenance interval for PS fluid. But if you don't drain, flush and refill the PS fluid every 20-25k miles you will need a new pump and rack long before any vehicle gets very old.

 

> What I was getting at is for nearly all winter conditions, 4x4 and good tires will do the job. In the event of a major storm, or what have you, the TRD Off Road is equipped with ATRAC and a rear locker. 99% of the time you won't need them, but they're there when you do. As a former Marine, I understand and share your tendency for overkill. I also have a job that requires me to be ready to travel with 24/7 regardless of weather conditions, and I feel completely confident doing so in my TRD Off Road.

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A few years back we had a very early fall snow storm, the leaves were all on the trees and so the storm left whole trees down over almost all the roads. My parents live less than ten miles away but it required days before I could get there. Thank God the did not need me for anything. Same storm a guy with a heart condition called for an ambulance and two and a half days later - still no ambulance he died. His widow got big bucks. No trees were involved just deep snow. Had I known I could/would/should have made the run but I'm not EMT.

The snow storm just pissed me off, no one was going anywhere until the trees were cut up first.

> be ready to travel

I had a one arm welder, right arm reattached with no feeling or motion. The kid let his arm rest on hot work and cooked his hand. End of the work day he calmly walks up to the site trailer and asks to talk to me. Most of the time someone needs to make a medical appointment and needs a little time off.

Not that day, the kid pulls off his welding glove and his hand looks like a beef roast. He tells me it doesn't hurt, I don't feel a thing.

Yea some days I can make better time than a med evac helicopter.

>As a former Marine.

Thank you for serving our country,

The Lord bless you keep you, you and yours.

Amen

 

The yellow wire mod is for non off road trds who have nothing in low range. The off road trds have a-trac and the locker... but both only work in low range.

 

OH... so you are back here under a new handle since you were banned as whippersnapper! When I saw the video, with no rotation on the tire, I thought of your old one where you let a little bump in the road stop your truck.

Your A-TRAC was and is still broken... or you don't use the throttle since the tire rotations are MATCHED (or as I said locked, so one tire doesn't spin). If you don't give it gas, they will do nothing.

This video of a Tundra with A-TRAC shows that both front tires are locked (matched) together and with only one (front in this case) tire on solid ground, the A-TRAC (like a front locker) can pull you free. I have actually done this off roading when my truck was new and high centered the back. A rear locker was useless because both back tires were in the air.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1MOEZYAv5Q

 

People who live in woods in snow country always face the same issue.
I would say if you need fool proof get anywhere vehicle 1994 Land Cruiser with Front Rear lockers is the way to go. Put KM2 35 inch tires air down to 10 psi and amount of snow becomes irrelevant. That thing stays on the top of the snow regardless if there is 2 feet or 20 feet underneath.

Trees on the road ? What trees ?

 

> but both only work in low range.

One almost never uses low range in snow. My Tundra has VSC? or whatever and it just pisses me off. I'm making a sharp 290 degree turn pulling out in fast traffic and my inside rear tire touches a curb and my throttle goes dead for two seconds which is what distance when traffic is closing on me at +45 mph?

The factory faux LSD is a cruel joke. It is a veneer, a fake fur, synthetic sea food, breakfast syrup substituted for real maple syrup.

As it once was pointed out to me all the useless features in MS office are not there to be used, they are there only to sell MS Office. In the same way atrac was never meant to be used or even understood. It is a faux selling feature. "Oh yea we have this new and improved schyte and it's just as good." It isn't.

To think otherwise is to read a biography of Karl Wallenda and then think you can cross the Niagara gorge yourself on a 1/4" wire.

 

Hey Rock Lobster, thank you again for your explanations, they (make perfect sense) to those of us that listen, which includes listening to your video! Its very apparent that a-trac is working in your video. It's also very apparent,,, when it (stopped working) in your video! That, did, answer my question.
As far as people throwing stones when they don't understand, or don't want to listen, I say, don't sweat the small stuff? I don't know what went on before, but, for what its worth, your explanations helped me. Thank you again!

 

Hey Timothy, I'm an old school that agrees with you. That's why I bought, in my case a TRD sport. I liked the seats better than an sr5's. I, like you, would rather have a locker or tight mechanical LSD instead of (the electronics). I do want to understand them though, hence some of my questions regarding a-trac and the yellow wire mod that allows electronic LSD to apply in low range. I, like you, am headed for a better rear diff, and maybe a front as well, we'll see. Thank you for starting this thread, I've learned a lot.