Tacoma LSD questions

Joel,

I can't justify a 1994 Land Cruiser, I'd love to buy an ICON 4x4 but living in PA it would be a waste. Besides I don't have that kind of money.

http://www.icon4x4.com/

- That's my drool all over my monitor.

I once had a job interview in Barstow and noted at the time there was custom buggy shop in town. You pay the man several thousand, select sand buggy or rock buggy, pick a color and how many seats and a week later you go over and pick it up and drive home.

I'm all in.

I miss the high desert.

Get high enough in the NM mountains and trees reappear.

Alpine is > 8,500 elev.?

 

I'd love a 1994 land cruiser with front and rear lockers also! Back in 94 I could've had one. I'd love to live out west too, but, alas, I'm stuck in Michigan.. But ,, I can afford a real diff, and like you I intend to. I'm still very interested in the ARB. But, a good mechanical LSD is hard to beat, it works everywhere, all the time. No buttons to push. What's no to like.

 

I blew up my 8.4" ... so, it's not that strong lol..

 

Lol. If you blew up an 8.4 could you imagine what you would have done to an 8.0? .lol!

 

> With what one pays for that, who has money for more?

Even before purchased my 07 Tundra I had:

- TRD Rear Sway Bar
- Weather Tech floor mats
- Wet Okie F&R seat covers.
- set of 4 rims for winter tires.

- I'd like a set of yoda workshop manuals but evidently they cost more than the vehicle.

I put in an Auburn LSD soon after I learned about them. They use friction lining and wear out over time. In contrast a well treated Detroit Locker or Tru-Trac lasts forever.

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I'm not against an E-locker that uses a switch to turn LSD off and on, I just don't see the point of having one more thing (like a switch or air compressor) to go wrong.

Maybe because I am so hard on brakes I think any system that uses the vehicle brakes to allocate torque for one wheel or another is both a bad concept and an inferior execution.

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> I don't have any opinion on non-Toyota after-market equipment,

I don't dance, I don't mind watching wimmin dance but that is a separate issue. Point is dance is athletic, nuanced and requires timing, agility and coordination. As does off road driving. Those who have experienced a good aftermarket LSD have zero tolerance for cheap substitutes. Those who have not had that experience are still trying to justify or understand something that in my opinion just is not in the same class.

Please test drive one first, then make up your own mind.

 

I may be wrong but the Dana 44 used in jeeps and the Bronco is a 1/4 T not a half ton axle.

The rear axle used in the Tundra is built like a 3/4 or 1T axle, it is a hell of a work of art, in a good way.

 

those who say atrac is a joke has never used it.

Rear locked with the factory elocker and the front being modulated via atrac i have gotten through some GNARLY shit ... stuff that the only thing better would of been a locker up front... no amount of mechanical LSD could touch it.

That stated the brake modulated standard LSD is OK, but it is no match to a mechincal LSD, though it does a damn good job and does not have the side effects of a mechanical one.

 

I do not think that is true. Tundra and the Seq. share parts. The Tacoma has 2 different axles.

When shopping for LSD nothing I read would indicate that Tundra axle=T100 axle=Tacoma axle.

Sometime get a good at a Tundra axle, I did when they they put my Auburn LSD unit in. Damn is it over engineered.

 

I'm an engineer at Auburn Gear. I just got my Taco and am itching to install diffs for some "testing".

 

Mr. nd4spdbh

I am very sorry; I did not mean to offend.

If I understand correctly. (please verify)

- Your truck has a rear axle has a mechanical locker that is E activated? As opposed to something that works off the vehicle brakes?

- Your truck has an atrac system in the front axle that does work off the brakes? And you are happy with it?

In theory if your rear LSD is a real mechanical LSD - only electronic activated - than anything special in the front axle is better than an open axle.

My Tundra, not Taco, but also Toyota has an atrac type system on both axles from the factory. And I found it worthless. Which is why I spent $1200 parts and labor to put an Auburn mechanical LSD in the rear axle. The atrac system is still back there and functional, it never did much before I put the Auburn in and it still doesn't interfere.

But what has me interested, if I understand you correctly is that you have a Taco with a factory mechanical LSD? If that is the case I suspect it does work very well.

In my fantasy alternate reality, we could all gather some scenic rural place and assuming we are all responsible adults. We could then drive some number of (other peoples) 4x4 tacos with variety of LSD treatments and all educate ourselves.

I have been very active in a Ford SHO group. Mine was one of the first V8 SHO which was hated by the earlier V6 SHO. So I showed up to a club meeting let 30-40 folks drive my car with the instructions: "Enjoy your self but please don't break anything." I went very well.

My only experience with atrac on all 4 wheels has been with my own 07 Tundra; and in theory at best, even if it did work well, you only have one wheel working on each axle in 4WD.

Often when traction is hardest to find, as on ice, wet leaves, wet lawn, or on snow. Too much torque or sudden application of torque is the last thing you want or need. You don't want power jumping over and back between two wheels as with Posi or atrac.

A locker, or a Tru-Trac applies power to both wheels on an axle, and in the case of the tru-trac it proportions torque to resistance at the wheel. It greatly facilitates smooth driving, where as power jumping all over does not.

>side effects

If a driver has a front axle LSD and drives like a gorilla one of the front tires may pull the nose of the vehicle to one side or another in a way not desired or anticipated by the driver at the time. I'll admit sometimes turning the steering wheel when stuck to help the front tires find traction or find a better path, but one can do that in moderation or one can just break everything they touch.

While lockers are not recommended in the front axle for that reason, tru-trac are OK and FMC put them in the front axle of Raptors, (some years not all that I know of) and your set-up is not that different than mine right now. Mech LSD rear axle, atrac front axle.

I still think the better drivers, off road, on road, or on the track, are very smooth drivers and drive drama free.

What I was being critical of: nothing or atrac in the front, atrac only in the rear and somehow thinking they had the benefits of a 4x4. I guess I am also critical of Toyota for selling a 4x4 with only atrac and in the case of my Tundra no better factory options.

 

There is just A-TRAC, not other A-TRAC type systems, as far as Toyota goes. I understand you need traction in snow, and I need traction for desert, beach, grades. I have been in snow to test the systems.

IF you have A-TRAC (there is a button), then how I found it to work best in snow was with my rear locked (low range only), to eliminate the engine regulation. The A-TRAC only locks the front tires if you drop under 3 mph, as if you are getting stuck or stopped and need to start moving. Once over 3 mph, there is no brake assisted traction control and no engine output regulation, or VSC beeping, as you are in LOW RANGE.

Your other dilemma was the annoying beeping of the VSC in high range. I don't like it a lot either, but it only happens when you slide or spin and the system is telling you to back off the accelerator, but that it is working, for safety.

Have you turned OFF the VSC and reduced or eliminated the beeping? To turn off the VSC, stop moving and press and hold in the VSC OFF button for a few seconds (until indicator light comes on). Now drive... you have shut off the stability and traction controls (open differential driving). Now, if you do go into a slide or spin out because of aggressive driving, the system will come back on to prevent you from wrecking your truck (or at least try)... Some would say that is great, and some will say that is not freedom.

In 2WD on my truck and in 4WD on 2012+ trucks if you press the VSC button briefly, you get AUTO LSD (aka TRAC OFF MODE) which turns OFF the VSC under 30 mph but you still have traction control. TRAC with engine regulation off, for a stronger limited slip. Over 30 mph, VSC comes back on however.

 

Fun in the snow.

I 79 runs north south from Erie Pa to Charleston VW. The West Virginia parts are the most interesting in winter because of the mountains. On dry roads in WV much of I79 is banked in turns like a giant toboggan run. Old folks who grew up there run 80-85+ mph all day long whizzing through the banked turns throwing sparks from their rocker panels. NASCAR meets Ma and Pa Kettle.

Where it gets sporting is when the mountains get a foot or two of snow and the snow plows don't keep up. The banking in the corners can have as much % grade left to right as the mountains do in the intended direction of travel. So all that steep banking that makes high speed boogie on dry roads possible makes staying in your own lane a lot more interesting when traveling 30mph on snow or ice.

Problem is with steep banking is you need to travel quick enough to stay in your own lane. Too fast and you fly off the high side, too slow and you slide off on to the low side. And one might not like any particular choice of much speed unless they have a lot of tread on their tires with fresh edges.

I'm old enough and Lord willing smart enough to be one of the first to be one of the first to get a hotel room and wait the storm out. WV-Dot isn't too bad. But my point would be that when doing a circus act like that one may not want electrical nannies jumping in and out and "helping you drive" when you are too tense to pound a golf tee up your own butt with a 5 LB mallet.

In Pa the Appalachia hills are mostly east of Pittsburgh so we don't often do the Ice Age Part Duex. But a lot of folks don't know that WV would be bigger than TX if they could get all the wrinkles ironed out. I'm just saying that it's not the same as driving in the snow in IL where you can travel for 100's of miles in any direction before you find water smart enough to run down hill.

 

I understand why you feel the way you do, and I have a reason for loving A-TRAC so much, as well. Because of A-TRAC, I don't have a need for a front locker to go to the crazy places I do go and I feel safe enough that I can go alone as I don't fear getting stuck.

I always get the Off Road TRD for the locking differential, and my first two didn't have A-TRAC... the A-TRAC was a wonderful surprise in 2009 for me.

The A-TRAC is not extra, but included at no additional cost with the Off Road (that we get because we seek the rear locker).

The A-TRAC does use brakes, but it uses spin sensors and a computer to MATCH tire rotation across the axle (ie. 'locks' the two tires together). TRAC only slows spin on one tire so power is balance towards the other with more traction. This is great, but a big step less than A-TRAC. TRAC in H4 is a great and better than L4 with nothing... and why the yellow wire or 4 Lo Trac Mod is so popular... because TRAC is that effective.

Not many videos show the A-TRAC actively working, as it only locks for as long as needed to keep moving, and frees up the spin when you need to turn or aren't stuck. When it is working (one tire in the air, one on the ground) the tire in the air only rotates the same speed as the one on the ground, exactly as a locker would allow. This 50/50 power split is the beauty of going anywhere and not being stuck. True 4WD is 50/50 split front and rear, and lockers or A-TRAC is 50/50 split side to side. The A-TRAC simply frees up when not needed, and that is the difference between it and selectable lockers.

Hard core, King of the Hammers, and primary rock crawling people are best served by front and back lockers... the rest of us who have fun driving to impossible places on occasion or just don't like getting stuck will do fine with the stock Off Road TRD 4WD.

 

Just buy a used 2005 - 2008 Tacoma with the TRD Sport package. They came with a mechanical LSD. Very strong, very reliable, no electronic nanny bullshit. Plus you get the skewp.

 

umm no... it is infact COMPLETELY different hardware for the grunt behind any brake assisted traction control.

TRD OR 4x4 models have a completely different master cylinder that uses an electric brake booster capable of higher pressures and quicker pulses.... it houses the ABS / traction control all in one unit... where as the rest of the models use a separate abs unit and a standard vacuum assist master cylinder which can only do so much.


But like stated atrac is only available in 4lo ... and unmodded same with the rear locker (though the locker anytime mod is very easy to do) If i could have best of all worlds id have a torsen diff that i could electronically lock.

 

Yes, see the photo, ain't I cool?

I wanted to make a 4WD or 4X4 badge, but that service offers no numbers, only letters. I don't get why a Tundra gets a 4X4 badge, but we only get 4X4 mudflaps, that break off when off roading!

 

Thank you for taking time to understand it or to actually use it! Seeing where you can take a stock A-TRAC Tacoma is believing!

 

Hey again Timothy, I have heard,,, that you could lead a horse to water, but, the horse drinking was another issue? You, an I, have a different use for our 4x4's. Ours is not going somewhere to experience snow and ice, but to live (with) it!!! I'm sure, and will not dismiss, a-trac's prowess in certain situations. But, in 4lo, in snow, its not useful with wheelspin above 3-5 mph. That's (not) truck speed, it's wheel speed. I understand it's difficult to explain to others, that haven't experienced it in deep, sustained snow and ice. A good LSD, or a locker is the answers, for (us). I will not say anything to others, that would (belittle), their uses, or experiences. It's sometimes a shame, that that same courtesy isn't reciprocated!!!

 

Damn I am confused more than ever as when to use these features on my TRD Off-Road in snow/icy,muddy or other off road conditions.

I never thought I would be this confused about something simple so I have these question...

1. Snow under say 15-20 inches?
2. Muddy condintions off road but not deep mud?
3. Climbing a incline either grass or muddy condintions?

What combinations of these options too use in conjunction with each other for safe and most effective use of each?

Timothy I am very sorry for your loss.....

 

I'm sure everyone would be sorry for your confusion? An answer to your confusion may be in your owners manual? If not, I'm sure there's a self proclaimed (expert) lurking around that will help you soon? Good luck.