SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

Dont know where you're at on this but if it was a sparkplug failure, coming apart inside the combustion chamber/head you could very well have a legit case against sparkplug manu. Just have to prove it, not easy but doable I'd think....

 

It would be a near impossible sell, and the OP would be very lucky if they could find a law firm willing to take on a big manufacturer. The first, and easiest defense would be that the person who installed the spark plugs overtorqued them, weakening the plug. Thank you your honor, we will see you at lunch. Case dismissed.

 

Agreed, it could've very well been part failure but almost impossible to prove

 

Plugs will fail from either physical contact, say a bad rod bearing or overheat. Since we have compression, damage to piston top and a prelinimary diagnosis of rod bearing, and why do rod bearings fail? Usually lubrication issues, like poor oil pressure, dirty oil, clogged oil passage...

 

Could have been the wrong reach/length plug, mis-boxed at the part store, lets say. The hole in the piston looks chiseled to an extent. Should look channeled and white dusty/molten, if it was a burn thru. To many variables to list.

KD tools made a extra long reach compression tester, with that metric adapter, and if one wasn't careful, you could definitely pound a hole thru the piston,,or it would just deadlock against the adapter, or snag a valve face edge on a hemi setup when it would spin over if it was reaching to far into the chamber.

Now the Funky Fram Filter lawsuits,,most are a slam dunk in favor due to having a bigger wallet for detectives and analytical resources and showing you can go the distance. They usually settle OOC, but not till you dump a truckload at someones feet to get it started.

 

That hole looked exactly like a melted hole to me.

If we're taking bets, my money is on a lean condition burning a hole in the piston.

Lean enough to burn that hole would certainly make short work of the spark plug too.

 

Interesting thought.

OP, if your mechanic determines that this in fact was caused by a lean condition (too little fuel in the combustion process) you might be well served by having a wideband 02 sensor air/fuel ration (AFR) gauge installed. The AFR gauge will take a reading off the wideband 02 sensor and give you a real-time AFR allowing you to keep an eye on things getting lean.

 

http://www.obd-codes.com/p0353

Hi guys!

4WD, thanks for the input - early on, we did consider calling a few attorneys to see what their reactions were to the spark plug situation....but never got around to it, and now, I'm thinking it's likely a lost cause for several reasons, some of which being the reasons others, like Bamatoy, have listed above, but most of all because of us digging out that invoice from 2007. In '07, we had a very similar issue, that likely would have progressed to where we are now, had we not caught it earlier then. We'd reported lurching when climbing hills to our local Toyota dealer in July '07, and they noted "engine noise" then found #3 cylinder's plug, wires, and coil pack were carbon tracked. They replaced them, and cleaned our fuel injectors, so it appears that was an 8 year band aid to some sort of underlying #3 issue/defect in design - not sure, but seems extremely unlikely that we'd be unfortunate enough to have a faulty plug (or faulty installation of a plug, or misboxed plug) at #3 TWICE. Right guys? Clearly you all know by now that I'm certainly no mechanic, but just based on logical reasoning of the facts, seems impossible that a faulty plug is the issue here. Trust me, I loved your theory though - would have been great to see a super wealthy corp. wind up being responsible for an expense that we'll be paying back for a long time......

So far the only update I've got is the mechanic that has Taco now looked at the borescope video that you've all seen. He seemed confident that it was a burned hole due to a lean condition, like Hypoxia mentioned. Obviously though, we don't really know anything for sure yet, til he opens 'er up. He thought he'd check out cat. convertor, pull codes, etc tomorrow, so not sure if he'll actually dissect the engine til next week or if he'll start tomorrow. I stressed to him that our priorities are 1) QUALITY!!!!!, 2) Cost, 3) Time - so I suspect I may have given him free license to prioritize other trucks ahead of ours, which kinda sucks, but really, it helps me sleep at night to think maybe that'll make him less likely to squeeze in a quick, half assed approach to our beloved Taco. I PROMISE I will post updates immediately when he does give us more info - it's really nice to feel like we've got this whole group of fellow Taco fans who are interested/give a crap about how this all turns out! Thanks guys!

I'm still chasing the following theory, based on the 2007 situation, plus reading this on the web: [FONT=&quot]1) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]"If an open or short is detected in the driver circuit for coil #3, a P0353 may set. Also, depending on the vehicle, the PCM (powertrain control module) may also shut down the fuel injector to the cylinder" Website attached. Tried googling P0353, but it's tough to interpret a lot of the stuff that comes up, being that I'm not a mechanic! Asked Toyota coporate if others have reported #3 issues (we've found A LOT of articles/forums of people complaining about #3 issues in a variety of Toyota models), but they didn't know of anything weird. So at this point, I'm trying to figure out whether the above situation happened, meaning that injector shut down in 2007 as well as now, as a result of some other issue (coil pack problem?), or if it's just simply injectors getting clogged over time, or even just a faulty one at #3? Would love to hear any thoughts/theories on that subject from you guys! Cuz obviously we wanna be sure the cause of 2007 and current (very similar!) issues are corrected!!!!![/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Moco, I'll definitely mention your suggestion about the sensor to the mechanic, sounds good and makes sense to me, thanks for the advice! Seems like something is causing a repetitive lean condition for us at #3, and we gotta fight back against that somehow!
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The thing with the injector shutting down for a P0252 code is that the #3 cylinder would then be in a CONSTANT state of misfire. It would be a major thing you would have noticed at the time. A lean condition based on a shut down injector would be less likely to burn a hole, as there is no actual ignition going on in that cylinder. you would have a spark only, since the injector would have been shut down totally. This would mean near ZERO heat output. Thus it wouldn't be capable of burning a hole in anything. A lean-burn like the video is indicating would result from a lean condition of greater than 25% lean, but much less than 100% lean. More in the range of 30-60% lean. That is where the most significant heat from a lean burn comes from. So no, I would say that an injector being shut off from a P0353 code would not be the cause.

 

Jen,

On a side note, tell your husband to not ever again use those damn fuel system cleaners - the vast majority of them are worthless and at best you get no benefit from it. At worst you are introducing foreign crap to your fuel system that may or negative effect the components of that fuel system (lines, filter, injector nozzles). The only additive I would recommend would be Seafoam. Seafoam has worked great in my experience and I would no issue running a bottle through the gas tank and crankcase every 5K miles (some folks suck it through the vacuum lines into the engine as well, but you guys should play it safe and avoid that at first because if you do it too aggressively, you can hydrolock your motor and be looking at another rebuild).

Also, if you don't already, make sure to get gas at reputable brands - not the mom&pop shops in the middle of nowhere or cutrate stations. The base fuel for most stations is the same, but the big brands like shell and BP add their proprietary additives which do a good job of keeping the fuel system clean.

 

Thanks for the info guys!

Bamatoy, what you said made sense about it likely not being that #3 injector is being shut down completely. Do you have any theories on why recurring #3 problems? Would love any input you might have on that!

I just noticed in June 2007 (right before 1st episode in July 2007 of lurching, then dealer finding "engine noise" and carbon build up at #3 plug, coil pack, wires), we had a remanufactured starter installed. Husband tried to follow Haynes manual to DIY the starter replacement, but accidentally removed the wrong bolt under the wheel well, so we took 'er over to local dealer and they did it instead. Could we have gotten a faulty starter, and if so could that cause these #3 issues? Sorry if that's a dumb question - still got a lot to learn about which parts connect to which parts!!

Moco, yep, I suspect we'll steer clear of that stuff. Ultimately we're going to follow whatever instructions the mechanic gives us TO THE "T"! That question is definitely on my list for him, cuz I'd love to hear his thoughts on whether it could have contributed to this disaster. It's hard to imagine the cleaner could have caused/contributed to this though, cuz we didn't start using it til ~2013ish, so then what caused 2007 problem that was nearly identical to this problem? Although husband remembers using Seafoam once a long time ago on Taco and Civic, so I'm gonna dig through Civic file and see if I find a 2007 receipt for Seafoam in there (hopefully I saved it!). If I do, it would be hard to deny a connection between additives in general and #3 recurring problem. Starting to feel like a detective! I can see why this mechanic stuff is kinda fun - you really are playing detective half the time, it's like a very difficult puzzle that you become obsessed w/solving!

Good point about the quality of the fuel we're getting. We usually get the cheap stuff - do you guys think it's worth going for the more expensive (higher octane, right?) stuff? Husband said we have some weird stuff in our gas in Oregon, because of environmental regulations or something? I'm all for saving the planet, but not if it means my engine will explode! We use the same fuel station most of the time near home, then when we go out in the boonies on summer trips or winter snowboarding trips, we're forced to use whatever's there, and sometimes those places feel like a station run by Randy Quaid's character in the movie Vacation!

 

Question - is there a simple way to test coil packs at home? I coulda swore someone explained that on this thread, but now I'm not finding it. Maybe I read it on the web or something.......

 

Its not necessary to get higher octane, but just make sure you get your gas at reputable places whenever possible - i.e. Shell as opposed to Uncle Joe's Gas Shack.

 

1. Remove wire from plug
2. Place plug end of wire on tongue
3. Start engine


*alternate procedure
place plug in wire and watch for spark

 

No way Moco, Randy Quaid gas station is way more entertaining!!

Teamhypoxia, we'll try the 1st method you described and I'll make sure to take a video to share on Taco World for everyone's entertainment!!

 

Octane has 0 to do with the gas. It's wasted money 99% of the time, and if your engine is firing poorly will do more harm than good.

The most entertaining method of testing ignition is to get a helper you're not too fond of to hold the plug wire while you crank it.

 

No bets being taken here. More pages being uncovered and it's a big thread.

Medium grade gas in these trucks Jen. No less. Especially on the Wet Coast and our winter blends of fuel.

Really cheap gas had a hand in this,,if this is what you guys have been running.

 

How do the shitheap Tacomas, HiLuxs, and other Toyotas in AFG and other 3rd world toilets keep running endlessly on crap gas then?

 

Hmmm, Indy, perhaps the dealer tech should hold the plug wire? You know, the one who very condescendingly informed me that he "didn't know if they pulled our engine codes (after we reported ENGINE NOISE and they confirmed ENGINE NOISE), and didn't have our paperwork in front of him, and it would have been pointless for them to pull the codes anyway because he was certain we had rod knock (even after I told him about the borescope/piston hole) so we'd need new engine regardless of the codes." Wanted to explain to him that actually, my understanding is that those codes being pulled A) should be the first thing that's done, particularly when engine noise is reported, particularly at a dealer, and B) it very well could've helped point to the cause of the engine problem, but of course he didn't give me a chance to respond, cuz he already knows everything anyway.

Yeah, that guy. Guessing he wouldn't fall for holding the wire, considering he's a mechanic.....although, he doesn't appear to be the sharpest tool in the lovely little shed at that dealer......end rant.

Sorry if I'm offending folks that like the dealers. We used to like that one too! Fortunately we've got 2 other dealers in Portland area that we've seen occasionally before and they've always been awesome. We've always trusted dealers more than any other mechanic option - spent nearly $3,000 at that particular one over past 10 years! But (I'll spare the long gory details), that particular dealer has been INCREDIBLY RUDE, unhelpful, and downright ignorant through this entire process, so yes, it would be really fun to have him hold the wire. : ) I've even wondered if that electrode was still sitting on top of the piston (and therefore retrievable BEFORE destroying engine) when our Taco arrived there, cuz I shut it off immediately after the noise started, and it was towed straight there…….and if they'd looked back at our history of "ENGINE NOISE" and carbon build up at #3 from 2007, perhaps they would have pulled that plug and found it......we’ll never know…….

 

This is what they bank on. One of the biggest scams going. Only take your car in to the dealer shop for warranty work. Once its out of warranty, do it yourself or take it to a cheaper (many times more competent) Indy. Remember, most dealerships are set-up to abuse their techs to juice the most work out of them for the least amount of pay. As such, they have very high turnover and are constantly hiring know-nothings right out of school for $12/hr. They keep a couple of senior techs and surround them with a mass of lower paid slaves of varying experience and skill. This is the typical dealer set-up on flat rate.

NOT EVERY SINGLE dealer is like the above, but my experience has been that 70% are. The typical dealer service customer doesnt know much about their car and falls for the propaganda, thinking because some tech 18 months out of school, wearing a Toyota shirt is going to give them better service than the little old Asian guy down the street that charges 65% of the labor rate and has been working on Toyotas for 45 years.