SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

I don't know the answer, but I'm thinking the problem is fuel related and most likely under the hood.


I bet the tech finds the issue pretty quick once he starts pressure testing.

 

Thanks guys. I hope and pray whatever this is, it doesn't become several hundreds or (god forbid!) thousands more in parts/labor, cuz now that we're in this far, we'll likely say yes to just about anything recommended to be sure it's 100% fixed. Oy yoy yoy, this blows. Still have moments where I wonder if we made the right decision fixing it instead of replacing.......and stuff like this definitely makes that fear a little stronger...

Ah well, too late now, so I suppose we just need to cross fingers and wait for more news...

In an ironic way though, this is almost slightly satisfying, in that it seems it could lead to some sort of explanation as to why the hell we've had fuel injector failures more than once. Granted, I don't even totally understand what the mechanic is saying, so maybe I'm wrong, and one has nothing to do w/the other......but since it's all part of the "fuel system" it seems possible that there's some relation, right?

 

I'm grateful that the mechanic is communicating honestly with us, although of course I wish it was all good news. Other "fun" news in his message was:

"When driving I do hear a possible front drivers wheel bearing howl. You may have slowly gotten used to it, something you can think about in the future and the shocks feel tired."

We replaced the shocks/struts in June 2012, so that's discouraging to hear. Although we have done plenty of extremely rough road driving since then, so does that seem logical, that shocks might need replacing again this soon?

Do we need special tools to address front drivers wheel bearing howl ourselves? Just looked in Haynes manual and it sounds like we'd have to take it to a machine shop, right? Taco is 4wd, so that affects how the repair is handled, right?

 

This and this.

About 2 years on standard typical shocks and struts if your using them each weekend. Sounds about right.

Get a second ear on the bearing, see if you guys can hear it.

 

You do need a special tool to change wheel bearrings-not fun. Make sure it is a WB. I find the carrier bearring is more prone to fail. When those go bad, you will swear that you have a bad WB. It is hard to pinpoint the origin of the sound. The carrier bearring will transfer the noise thru the entire truck. Mine drove me nuts before I found it was a bad carrier bearring and not a WB.

 

If this is what's happening, do you think this could have caused (or contributed) to injector issues in 2007 and again now? Think I should tell the mechanic to go ahead w/his testing/diagnostic process but regardless of what he finds have him put in a new denso fuel pump? Or would it make sense to try to do this ourselves?

Hmm, if this could have been the root of the injector issues, perhaps we didn't need to spend extra $$$ for the AFR gauge excellent, we're on a roll of brilliant decisions!

Think this could be a problem w/new engine, or something goofy about it's installation process (rather than problem w/existing element on our truck)?

Anyone think mechanic's description of problem sounds like a vacuum leak?

With the "front driver wheel bearing howl" issue vs. carrier bearing - husband replaced "drive shaft bearing" which he called the center support bearing in 7/2012. Is that the same thing as the carrier bearing? Too many different names for same parts!! If so, is it possible it could be that again, or does that make it more likely it's indeed a wheel bearing? Brand he used was: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/BCA0/HB26.oap?ck=Search_01418_1375354_-1&pt=01418&ppt=C0362.

By the way Koditten, we had a heck of a time tracking down that noise at the time too! Went to TWO different dealers for diagnosis - one said our oversized tires were causing it (same dealer that told us spun rod bearing/blown HG this time), other one got it right (the one we'll use in the future, even though they're much farther away!). The one that blamed tires said "swapped tires w/less aggressive tires and test drove; howling noise is gone, noise due to tires." Then when husband picked up, he still heard noise, so he asked tech to take a drive with him. Husband rolled both windows down, then tech finally heard noise and said, "oh, you rolled your windows down to hear it?" Nt kidding. Sorry to dealer bash again, but I swear, it's only that one that we've had such a bad time with. And really, we should be bashing ourselves too, cuz we've been dumb enough to keep going back there despite many bad experiences over the years!

On the shocks - what brands do you guys like and why?

Is replacing shocks safe to delay, as long as we replace them before our next rough road adventure? Guessing it'll be a while, considering the sun won't shine here in Oregon for at least 6 months! Even though it's just a tiny little glimmer of an image in my mind right now, as we wade through all the miserable repair decisions, it makes me very, very happy to imagine the feeling of turning down that crazy ass road, sun shining, blasting some Waylon or Willie, knowing Taco just got totally fine tuned head to toe, wondering what the hell we'll find!! Hope we make it to that point at the end of all this!!

 

http://www.underhoodservice.com/tech-tip-diagnosing-fuel-pumps-and-injectors/

Kind of an interesting article, and fairly easy to read for someone like me! And the following excerpt was definitely satisfying to read - finally, some possible explanation as to why #3 both times!

"On four-cylinder engines, the #2 and #3 injectors are in the hottest location and tend to clog up faster than the end injectors on cylinders #1 and #4. The same applies to the injectors in the middle cylinders in six- and eight-cylinder engines. The hotter the location, the more vulnerable the injector is to clogging from heat soak."

 

If this is a fuwl pump issue, here is how to figure out: when you go to start, turn to key to ignition. wait and listen for the fuel pump to stop pumping. then it should start OK. It just may take a few seconds (10 or so) to pressurize the fuel line.

 

don't bother, just have the mechanic check and address the bearing/steering issue when he is done with the engine. for a couple extra hundred dollars you dont have to get into something you may or may not be able to handle yourself and im sure he will go easy on the price for you since he is making good money on the engine.

do you really want to get the truck home and have the wheels off it for another week (or more) while you try and figure out and fix what is going on (bearings/ cv joints/ steering parts or all three)?

or would you rather just have it fixed for you and you can go for a ride and enjoy your new truck without needing to fix it first? odds are against it but what if the wheel or steering just lets go on the way home and you wreck it after spending all this money? tell the guy to fix whatever he finds wrong with it, you are already in this too deep to try to save a few dollars on a safety issue at this point.

 

That's a good one, get him to point out the "cold start injector" and bring your camera.

The pump does not come on with "ignition" only. The ECM must see crankshaft rotation from the crank position sensor and/or 12V from "start".

 

"Gasoline is supposed to contain enough detergent to prevent these deposits from sticking and accumulating in the injectors. But guess what? Not all gasoline is the same. Some brands contain much lower levels of detergent than others. Consequently, filling up with the cheapest gas one can find may not be the best idea in the long run — especially for short trip, stop-and-go city driving that causes deposits to form at a much faster rate. To counter this, a growing number of gasoline retailers (Chevron, Conoco, Kwik Trip, Shell, Texaco, 76 and others) now comply with “Top Tier” standards that call for higher levels of detergent to keep injectors clean."

I know some of you felt the quality of the gas station matters - Mod, you thought cheap crappy gas played a part in our miserable engine situation, right? Seems like everyone in the world has differing opinions on this, but I like how this article explains it, and can kind of understand the point better. Funny, just got back from Costco, and never paid one bit of attention to marketing signs about gasoline content - but you bet your ass while standing in line, I noticed their giant poster about how their fuel contains even higher amounts of the detergents than required by "top tier" standards - was real glad to see that, cuz they have great prices! Woo hoo! Quality AND value? OK!

 

Some good reading, and right on point.

Cheap dirty fuel loves injectors,,it also loves on all the other fuel related parts, since there in it together. That fuel you burn also aids in cooling the injector itself. Those little guys don't like to be without for to long, without good pressure and a clean fast flow together. They were designed to be fluid fed there whole life of operation. When one plugs up or partially plugs,,severe engine mayhem is waiting it's turn.

Pick a local station(s) and stick to it. Mom and pops stations buy fuel from whoever they can get it from quickly. I use Pacific Pride Cardlock when up and down I-5. THE BEST grit and water separators out there. Filters that slam shut when they electronically sense impurities.

Hopefully your mileage is good once you get it back. I am sure you guys will keep an eye on everything.

 

Thanks everybody who suggested Rock Auto - husband's been on their site pricing various stuff better part of yesterday and this morning, and he keeps going, "holy crap, can't believe how much cheaper everything is, WOW!"

Thanks guys!

 

sooooooooo .....

did they get the front end fixed and did you got the truck back yet?

 

Nope, not yet. Actually no update today, so I'm hoping I'll hear something tomorrow.

Pretty sure husband's gonna fix wheel bearing - he researched parts/tools/process all weekend, and he's planning to also take care of some kind of "boot seep" problem w/rack & pinion on passenger side that the crappy dealer that I love so much told us about. He'll also do shocks/struts - thinking may be easiest to do all at once, and maybe brakes at the same time, basically take apart good chunk of front end all at once. These are repairs that are certainly not fun, but possible even in a wet gravel driveway (as opposed to what rebuilding an engine woulda been like in that circumstance!).

We did ask for an estimate on having mechanic do wheel bearing, and pending cost difference we might ask them to do that, but ultimately wanting to get back to saving $ here and there on crap that husband can handle - he swears his way through it, but ultimately he gets it done and feels damn good about it afterwards, then feels more confident the next time something breaks! And sometimes we actually get lucky enough to get a break in the rain just long enough to complete repairs in less than miserable conditions - will cross fingers on that one! But there's always beer to help out in those miserable conditions (and the ones that aren't too!)! That's my job - hold the flashlight, crank up the tunes, and keep the cold ones coming!

So for now, we're just hoping mechanic can get all fuel/engine related stuff perfected for us, then bring 'er home and CELEBRATE!!!!!!!!!!!

 

A spendy road your traveling, but the bright side is that you are resetting alot of stuff all at once and at the same mileage. Dependability returns.

It's a keeper now. blood, sweat, tears, beers, Cheers!

 

Be 100% sure the proper diagnosis is made. A failed fuel pressure regulator can cause fuel to leak into the intake during a hot soak (20-40 minutes of sitting after the engine has warmed up) and this will flood the engine, preventing it from starting. Also, as mentioned, low fuel pressure, or loss of fuel pressure, can also cause this. Sadly enough, a leaking injector can cause the same problem. So make sure he does a thorough inspection before he replaces anything.

When it comes to wheel bearings, I think I can safely say I am a pretty good expert. the 1st gen wheel bearings can be a bit of a bear to replace. If your hubby wants to tackle it himself, he will need a 20 ton press, and some specialty tools that he may not have. What I would suggest is to get the bearing, and the seal, from RockAuto.com (only buy Timken brand bearings) and take the front spindle off the truck, and take the entire thing to a shop that has a press. Most shops will usually only charge you from $60-80 to do the press work. Trust me on this. I have seen too many people try it themselves, and end up blowing a lot of $$$ having to redo it.

 

Thanks Bamatoy!

Yes, w/the fuel issue, I will definitely ask lots of questions to be sure he's correctly identified the issue. We emailed him back about the fuel issue and asked him to keep us posted as he inspects (AKA talk to us before replacing parts). I was surprised not to hear anything yesterday, but plan to call this afternoon if no word by then.

W/the bearing, thanks for the recc' on Timken - we were going to get a cheaper brand, so good to know the Timken is worthwhile value! Husband was planning to do the machine shop thing like you described, so we're hoping he'll be able to manage the repair. We'll still consider the mechanic's estimate on doing this, and decide pending cost difference. But since husband plans to address boot seep and shocks/struts, he feels like he may as well do wheel bearing too, unless mechanic's price is crazy low (will specifically request TIMKEN brand if we have him do it - thanks again for the tip!). Tonight we'll look up the Timken on Rock Auto, and I'll post the link - so if you get a second to look at it and verify it's exactly what we need, we'd really appreciate it!

So for now, husband plans to do the drivers wheel bearing, the shocks/struts, and the "boot seep" passenger side thing (not sure if he'd replace entire rack and pinion - called 2 Les Schwabs and described it, one said replace whole thing, other said might just need a new bellow boot). Can anyone think of anything else that it would make sense to replace, or at least inspect, when all that stuff is apart, and we're at 200K? Obviously he'd look at brakes, but what else would you guys suggest? Also, has anyone ever replaced just the bellow boot? Husband is thinking we should do whole rack & pinion - does that sound right? Any brand recc' on that?

Final question - he's hoping to do all this in June or so (to take the nasty rain element out of the equation!) but will do sooner if these are not things to wait on due to safety/doing more expensive damage by waiting. Can we assess the urgency of the bearing by the loudness of the howl? We didn't hear a thing before engine trouble, so hard to believe it's obnoxiously loud now. W/the boot seep, husband said there's not an active leak, and read on other forums about guys that ignore these for years and are fine. Definitely wouldn't wait past June on this, but would love input as to whether you guys think these are problems that are OK to delay 6 months, or if you have any guidance on simple ways to assess the timing urgency of them.

Thanks guys! Wow, now "spun rod bearing vs. spark plug electrode bouncing around" turned into wheel bearing, rack & pinion, shocks and struts thread! Good grief, Mod said it best - "a spendy road we're traveling"!!!!!!! We knew about the boot seep thing before engine decision, so at least that's not a shock, and shocks/struts are kinda like tires/brakes - they wear out pretty quick. The bearing was unpleasant news, but at least it looks like something we can manage at home for a few hundred altogether. "Blood, sweat, tears, beers, cheers!"

 

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/bf20340.htm

Article quote:
"Power racks can also develop fluid leaks. Seal wear can allow fluid to seep out of the power cylinder into the end bellows on the rack. The bellows are not designed to hold power steering fluid. The presence of power steering fluid in either bellow, therefore, means the rack is leaking internally and needs to be replaced. If nothing is done about the problem, the bellows will continue to mushroom with fluid until one or the other bursts, releasing the fluid that has been mysteriously disappearing from the pump reservoir.
Fluid leaks around the pinion input shaft are also an indication of internal leakage that needs to be repaired. Though seal kits are available for many applications, installing seals is a delicate art that requires numerous special tools, and is not always successful. That is why most technicians simply replace he rack with a new or remanufactured unit."

When Toyota tech looked at Taco for engine problem, he wrote "P/S rack seeps RH boot" - I assume he means "power steering rack seeps right hand boot" correct? Husband said "bellow boot" (that one of the Schwab guys said to replace) is an accordian looking thing under passenger door, and he thinks this is what Toyota tech was talking about, because he's noticed it looking wet before, but not actively leaking. Schwab did bushings and alignment in July 2013.

Good grief, as I'm skimming through that article, I got to a section that describes how the racks come in a "long rack" or a "short rack" - eye yey yey, I pray I never have to choose between a long or short anything on the Taco again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Although at least now I immediately know the basic differences between the two options, regardless of what vehicle system we're talking about!!!!!

 

+1 on having a machine shop do the press work, i had new rear wheel bearings done and it cost $35/per axle. I messed around for 5 hours trying to do it with my 12 ton shop press without the proper tools and nearly killed myself.
Have your husband do the wrenching and pay the machine shop for the press work- you"ll still come out far ahead vs having a shop do the whole job.