SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

+1 ^^^^^^^^^

as well as i think maybe those old injectors he cleaned and reused or maybe even the ones he replaced may not be working correctly and leaking fuel.

that's why i always prefer to advise people to replace injectors and not try to clean and reuse them.

im sure its going to be an injector leaking down the fuel pressure issue

 

Im leaning with Kirk on this, if it started ok hot before Id say something changed with the install of the new motor.

 

Koditten, I see what you're saying. But today, after being shut off for ~2 hours, it barely started. Up til that point, it was starting great/instantly when cold, and great/instantly if it was only off for 5 min or less; hesitated starting ONLY in "hot soak" situation (after shut off ~30 min). But today, when we were starting it to take back to mechanic, it sat ~2 hours, so I assume that means it was cold, right? Then it hesitated like crazy, way worse than any of the starts in the video - I thought it wasn't going to start at all, then it finally turned over. Knowing that, you still think sensor/wire issue, or does that indicate fuel issue?

Old army mechanic neighbor just came over and watched video of various starts, and read all of your guys' thoughts - he's torn too. He thought giving the throttle body a good cleaning would be a good first step. He also thought a leaky injector seemed like a logical explanation. This is definitely one of the reasons I'm glad we didn't try to take on the engine swap ourselves, with a used or a reman, doing it on our own, cuz we would be so freaking lost right now! Yet it really sucks that we are paying a mechanic to do it, cuz I'm worried about what kind of additional labor charges/parts we'll be looking at. And yeah, it's frustrating to think we didn't have these problems w/old engine, so at what point should we not have to pay for more crap? Although who knows, perhaps whatever the culprit is now, particularly if it's something fuel related, WAS actually going on before, and contributed to hole in piston. Good grief, just when I thought we were at the end of this long road........

 

Since it's back at the shop, let him do his thing. It seems they want to take care of it since you invested in there shop. Very important to have the fuel and spark delivery right on a new motor for the first part of it's new life.

They made a bit of money on the fuel filter change,,but it's not a easy task either. Have them check there filter they installed, that could cause a bleed off if it's not tight. You would smell heavy gas fumes if it was loose.

 

In looking through Haynes manual, found this diagram - it looks like we have a cold start injector, like the mechanic mentioned. I think someone said we don't - so I'm wondering if this diagram is right, or ?????? Could that thing have something to do w/what's going on???

 

This is one of those times I wish you had a scan gauge. You would be able to see if the truck is running in "open loop" after it was good and warmed up. If that temp sensor is bad, the truck would be running in "open loop" the whole time. The gauge would tell yiou what your actual engine temp is. The onboard temp gauge in the dash is rediculously inaccurate.

I'm sub'd to the end.

KO

 

Here is a better pic.

What you are showing is a timer, not an extra injector-those are for super charged engines.

 

Koditten, you're convincing us to get a scan gauge. It's in our Amazon shopping cart...will think it over a bit more then likely buy.......

 

Haynes is notorious for being a compilation of generic BS that may or may not apply to the specific subject vehicle. That diagram looks to be a reprint of an earlier truck with the 3.0L v6. It's definitely not your 3.4 and you do not have the injector or the timer, period. I don't just make this stuff up.
I will say it one more time, a scanner with live data needs to be involved in this process along with a knowledgeable person reading it, who is referencing accurate factory specifications. That should be first, followed by or in addition to a fuel pressure test.

Someone

 

What type of scanner are you referring to? Is this something that any mechanic would have in their shop? Would the goal of this step be to identify whether a sensor, such as the engine coolant sensor, is the culprit?

If Haynes is garbage, what manual can be trusted? I thought the general consensus was Chilton is garbage, Haynes is better (we have both) - did I get it backwards? I've seen people talk about their FSM's - how do we get one of those? Can you just buy it from a dealer?

A old friend who is constantly involved in multiple project cars (but lives in Illinois- damn!) watched our little start 'er up video, and I filled him in on the details w/the engine, fuel stuff, etc. And the very first thing he said was to check the engine coolant temp sensor. Seems like there are many votes for that - if mechanic doesn't bring that up immediately when we talk tomorrow, will definitely ask him to check that. And Dirty Pool, you seem to feel very strongly about the scanner situation - please help me understand exactly what you mean, so I can ask the mechanic about doing that too.

 

Bama & Keakar, after hearing you guys and the neighbor explain what would happen if an injector is leaking, it sure sounds possible that this is all or part of the problem. And yes, it bugs me a little to think that only 2 of the 6 injectors were replaced - like, how much life do the remaining 4 really have in them, considering how old they are in miles/years? But, he said the only way to "test" them was to clean them, and we definitely needed to test those little buggers, to be sure we'd found the cause of the piston hole. And then once 4 "passed", and were cleaned, and cleaning them wasn't free, it was like, why would we insist to the mechanic that we wanted to replace those and spend more? Of course, that logic made sense THEN.......

On a brighter, lighter note, husband and I went on a shopping spree at everyone's fave store last night.......drumroll..........HARBOR FREIGHT!!!!! Managed to drop (flush, to be more accurate) $250 in there - here's hoping we get one full use out of each item!! Seriously though, he stocked up on a few tools to get his wheel bearing, boot seep, and shock/strut projects done, so hopefully those garbage tools will at least get us through their intended projects. My exciting purchase was a boot cleaner thingy - no more muddy shoes coming in the back door, woo hoo! We really know how to live it up on a Saturday night - you're all jealous, I can tell!!

 

Old friend I mentioned in earlier post, who is fairly mechanically inclined, said this:

"1st thing I would check would be the engine coolant temp sensor. If it goes bad, or isn't connected right, the computer will think the engine is still cold, and will dump to much fuel in causing hard warm starting, etc. it's pretty easy to check with a multi-meter. Also being as how all that stuff was just out, make sure the wires running to the coolant temp sensor and all the other sensors (crank, cam position, throttle position are plugged all the way in, look good, etc. if that engine has an egr valve, might want to check it for proper operation as well. There should be procedures in the manual for all that. There may be two or more different coolant temp sensors . Usually there's one for the gauge or light and one for the engine, sometimes you can swap the connection accidentally but they aren't always the same spec."

Does our truck have 2 or more different coolant temp sensors, koditten? I should look at that diagram you posted - I've looked at it a bunch, thank you for sharing that - just can't remember off the top of my head how many of those I saw........

Does everything my friend said make sense to you guys? He's not necessarily knowledgeable about Toyotas specifically, but he's definitely helped me out more than once w/various car crap over the years........wish he lived in Oregon!!

Most of all, it seems alot of what he's saying matches what you guys are saying, so this is looking more and more likely to be the culprit.......

 

IMO Haynes and Chilton are in the same league. The FSM is, not surprisingly, by far the best. Short of buying the paper version for a fair chunk of change if you can find it (not sure they are still in print) see the sticky at the top of the 1st gen section. Or go here http://web.archive.org/web/20080731033603/http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/ The online versions can be difficult to navigate and have lots of missing pages, but the price is right. In 99 the price for all 3 volumes (paper, about 4" thick) was $230. I occasionally see them used for half that. Then there are services that provide various degrees of access to factory info for various fees. BamaToy and (I think) koditten will have info on them.

Scanner is a loose term for a device that plugs into the universal OBD2 (Google that) diagnostic port and reads vehicle data. These devices can be self contained hand held, software for laptops or hard mounted like the "ScanGauge". They can be as simple as just giving the trouble code behind a check engine light to real time monitoring of all sensors/engine parameters, freeze frame data at the time a code is recorded, longer term recording/graphing, open/closed loop status, short/long term fuel trim, check engine light reset and test readiness status. OBD2 is a standardized schedule of info but there are some manufacturer specific codes. Ability to see them will vary with the device. I had to purchase the ability to see "Enhanced Toyota Specific Diagnostics". Not really worth it for the average/intermediate DIYer.
This "engine coolant temp" sensor thing relates to the engine thinking it is at a certain temp and adjusting such things as fuel delivery and ignition accordingly. If the sensor is in error the ECM will be in error. Keep in mind the ECM uses data from a bunch of sensors which is why looking at all the data is the only way to know what's going on. Everything else is just a guess.

Any shop worth it's salt in "diagnostics" should have this capability.

 

The Actron 9575 is a good value for the data it provides and the low cost:




You can get one for $86 shipped here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ACTRON-CP9575-AUTO-SCANNER-OBD-II-CAN-LIVE-ENGINE-DATA-OBD2-SCAN-TOOL-/231444099710?hash=item35e324b27e&item=231444099710&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr

The 9575 will give you a ton of data that the other, cheaper $40 scanners wont.

 

Not koditten but yes, 2 sensors, "engine coolant temp" for the ECM and a "water temp" (Toyota's words) for the dashboard.

Yes, your friend seems on the ball but exactly what's going on is speculation until the proper diagnostic monitoring is done.

 

Would the AFR gauge tell us if we had a leaky fuel injector?

It's been reading normally, based on our understanding of what normal is. Mechanic said it shouldn't veer more than 1 point up or down from 14.7, and when it's running, it definitely stays in that range.

 

Koditten, we were going to order Scan Gauge II on Amazon, but pretty sure price went up since you initially suggested it. So I went to company website, to see if anyone had in store, and ideally for less $, and guess what? Our local AutoZone has ONE left, and it's on sale for $140 (amazon is $155 right now)! Headed there now! Just wish we would have had it BEFORE we drove Taco back up to his shop, which is 30 miles away....shoulda listened to you sooner!!

 

So essentially, as far as checking sensors, it sounds like the real questions are:

1) the quality of the scanner mechanic is using
2) his knowledge/experience/skill set at interpreting them and addressing accordingly

So I'm back to that uncomfortable balancing act, now that Taco is there, sitting and waiting for him to look at it again, of asking/suggesting things for him to look into, in an effort to save ourselves from wasting more $ on parts/labor we don't need, while trying to balance that with what Mod suggested - letting him do his thing without stepping on toes too much. Thinking about emailing him to ask him to check engine coolant sensor, and double check that all sensors are working properly. I did actually ask him that very question (were all sensors checked and are working properly) about 10 times, based on stuff you all have told me from the start - that the sensors are all fragile/important, and key to this whole engine swap. And maybe also asking him to clean the throttle body and intake air controller.

From what you guys are saying, sounds unlikely that this would be an EVAP system problem, like I'd suggested to him based on Haynes manual - now I'm worried about that too - like, what additional charges might we be looking at if he's going to test the evap system, just because I hammered on that???? I have no clue what the hell the evap system does, or how the f*** one tests it!!

It's tempting to take our new Scan Gauge II and drive up there and check this stuff out ourselves! Wish it was still in the driveway. Sigh. Just want to be done w/all this.

 

Not directly, it and an good understanding of AFR "cause and effect" will provide some clues. You must consider that the gauge is seeing the end result of engine control from looking at the exhaust. That is where the ability to read (scan) all the sensor/ECM ins and outs gives a better picture of what's going on.
Say you had a single injector just flooding a single cylinder like there's no tomorrow. The ECM is going to see this as an overall rich condition and "try" to compensate by reducing fuel delivery thru all 6 injectors. Just the opposite would occur with a single clogged injector. In these 2 cases a check engine light or code will not be set until the ECM runs out of ability to compensate for the condition or a preset level of abnormality is reached. These abnormal "fuel trim" levels could be seen occuring before a trouble code is triggered (or a piston gets burnt).

 

just take deep breathes and try to relax. let the mechanic
do his thing and stay out of it.

cooks and mechanics don't like to be "helped" or told what to do or look for, its comes off as your telling them they need your help which is insulting if they are professionals.

don't become crazy psycho lady again, it could make things awkward, uncomfortable, and possibly become unfriendly.

think about it from his standpoint, your trying to tell a mechanic how to fix a car


if you do have leaking injectors you should be able to see wet gas in the cylinder of the one leaking or on the plug of the one leaking will be wet when you remove it when it doesn't want to start