SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

If the starter solenoid were bad it would grind and not crank the motor.

Kind of like if you try to start it when it's already running.

 

Thanks Hypox. Sounds like we can definitely rule this out. Appreciate it!

 

This is starting to pics me off! I still think itis going . To be something simple.

The truck is randomly starting shitty after a 30-40 minute sit,yes? Sometimes it . Starts fine, some times it as starts scrappy,yes?

This makes me want to think there is a loose, cut or corroded wire that is looking a connection.

Maybe experiment by finding some real bumpy roads, then stop then try to start the truck.

If you can see some correlation with heavy vibration and starting, we could go from there.

Honestly, I'm at a loss, but as I said earlier, I'm in until the end.

 

OK, just did our 30 min interval start. Total shit. But then, started again 2-3 min later (normally a beautiful showroom - to use Koditten's words - start) but this time, it was meh, OKish.....did it again 2-3 min later, and again, just meh, OKish, not showroom fast, and also not total drag ass. Seriously going bonkers. Whiskey tonight, screw the wine.

 

Again, sorry about auto correct. It's not the booze this time, just the tarded phone.

 

Try J & B scotch. It's a nice, blended scotch whiskey. Nice apricot aroma. Very smooth for the price.

 

Thanks Koditten. Good to know you're here to the end, AND that it's pissing you off too. At least I know we're not alone!

Yes, shitty starts after ~30-40 min. Beautiful otherwise, except, see previous post.

I know Haynes manual is garbage, but it's what we got at the moment, so their diagnostic process rec' for shitty warm starts is

1) dirty air filter - replaced a perfectly decent looking one w/OEM straight from dealer ~1 week ago
2) vapor lock - had mechanics go back over entire vent line system, all good
3) bad engine ground connection - husband looked for this, and from what he could tell, no ground wires were disconnected (plus I'd ASSUME mechanics seeing it back 2x now after initial pick up would mean they triple checked for this)
4) defective pick up coil in distributor
5) fault w/fuel injection or engine management system

Today mechanics said no point retesting coil packs (they did this early on already), as our symptoms don't indicate bad coil packs. But #4 on Haynes list says coil packs, so thinking of trying to test those ourselves. Kinda remember that being an easy thing to check, AND it's not raining at the moment - bonus!

I like your idea about bumpy roads - seems as though it can't hurt anything, certainly won't cost anything, and sounds like lots of fun, hurray!!! Still pining for that moment that we get to be carefree and happy driving that thing again. And it's yet to NOT start, plus the engine purrs like a kitten (sometimes I wonder if it's running when I'm driving - that's how quiet and beautiful it is!) - so why not hit some fun stuff and test your theory? I like it! Or maybe it's just the whiskey talking?

 

Buying this tomorrow. Thanks man!

Our latest whiskey fave is Buffalo Trace - decent price for seriously good tasting stuff! When $ is plentiful (back in the days when expenses were lower and income was higher), we'd go for Makers hands down. These days, Jim Beam is our standby, with an occasional Buffalo Trace splurge. Really good stuff, and not a heck of a lot more than stuff like Jim Beam quality!

Gonna research testing coil packs now.........hoping its easy AND rain stays away!

 

Heck yeah,,take it wheeling. Maybe it will show itself a bit better. Light duty now,,no banging the rpm limit chip crazy on Waylon and whiskey,, overheating all over town.

Charge the phone and load up a extinguisher between the seats. Second thought, toss the extinguisher. It catches fire,,wait till it is fully engulfed before making the call. Do charge the phone and have a exit strategy.

 

Excellent idea Mod! Doing this tomorrow ASAP!

Seriously, every time I'm driving, I'm listening for wheel bearing (switched from studded tires to BFGs for this purpose) and/or engine noise. But I keep turning my fave Waylon album (The Ramblin' Man - damn, that dude was so freaking awesome!) down to listen, and turning heat off and opening window, even when it's cold, to REALLY listen in case any clues. And at some point, a person starts to go seriously batty, when they've charged (not paid, charged) this much $, and they can't even turn up their fucking Waylon and just blast on the gas and think about nothing! I'm sure you guys know that feeling I'm talking about.......that's the reason we all have Tacos, right? For that awesome I drive a Taco and I'm blastin my favorite tunes and this truck fucking rocks feeling, right?

And yet, til we get to the bottom of the hard starts issue, it seems dumb to take time/money away from figuring that out to address wheel bearing. And yet, til we do wheel bearing, it seems dumb (and maybe dangerous) to do the advised by mechanic "break in procedure" for the new engine, which is to try to get it up to 5000 RPMs by driving country roads, where you slow down then suddenly accelerate HARD, to help the new seals seat down properly. And yet, if we don't do proper break in on engine, it seems ALL OF IT is a lost cause.

More whiskey please. And why not go crazy with it - at this point, seems we're damned if we do, damned if we don't.

 

There should be a ground strap near the intake somewhere that comes off the injection harness. I did some work to a rav4 and forgot to tighten said ground strap which caused all kinds of weird drivabilty issues.

 

Thanks Knuckle, worth looking around for this, appreciate it!

New info guys, and I feel like we're onto something, but need to watch the trend/gather more data, report to you all, and hope like hell it means something to you.

We had our 4th good warm start last night - other 3 were before IAC valve was changed yesterday. One of those 3, I noticed we had the hood up. And the good one last night, we had the hood up. There's obviously something going on w/air and/or temperature, right? Like maybe the intake air temp sensor's bad? Or the ECT sensor? Mechanic said both were checked, and MAF was cleaned, but maybe it'd be worth double checking now also. Scan Gauge shows air intake temp and coolant temp, and we think we were seeing odd numbers on air intake last night, that didn't really correspond w/all the conditions Taco was in. Will try to watch those numbers more closely and see if it tells us anything.

In the meantime, thinking we're gonna research intake air temp sensors - how to clean/test, what they cost, how it functions exactly, etc. Maybe ECT too. And see about testing coil packs. If you guys have any inside tips on any of that stuff, I'd love to hear it!

Thanks guys! Happy Saturday morning to everyone!

 

Question, would a Toyota dealer's super expensive scan tool be of some benefit, if we went there for a diagnostic inspection? We keep using Scan Gauge to check for codes despite never getting CEL, and there's none.

A guy on Yotatech is really focused on that part of our situation - he thinks it's super weird that we're not getting codes, and said:
"When you are getting different idle speeds from what the ECM is used to seeing it will trip the MIL. Both my 3.4 engines trip the P0505 code the second it detects a different then normal pattern. If IAC valve was not working correct it should trip your MIL. I just can't see why the MIL is not tripping with these hard starts. About the only thing that does not trip the MIL is fuel pressure issues."

Does it seem super weird that we're not getting a CEL? If yes, any clues as to why we wouldn't be? Could our computer, or wiring harness be f'ed up? Do you guys agree that the only thing that doesn't trip MIL is fuel pressure issues?

These were his other thoughts -

"I can only think of someplace there is a electrical connection that is being effected by the heat from the engine. Are all the grounds clean and tight ?? The one for the ECM is so important and the fact it goes into the aluminum manifold it is so easy to be corroded causing problems. Sometimes you can`t see the corrosion with your eyes. Another random thought ground cables worn and tired. For what ever reason the starter bearings get tight after sitting for 30 minutes or so drawing system power away from the ECM during cranking causing the no start condition."

Only one other guy commented on the Yotatech thread, and he was kind enough to copy this from FSM:

Difficult to Start, hot engine
1) Starter signal circuit
2) Fuel pressure control circuit
3) Fuel pump control circuit

Does anything about what either of these guys said jump out at you guys as a lead of what we should look at next?

The IAT (intake air temp) readings on Scan Gauge - its typically in the 40s when we have a good cold start, which makes sense cuz temp outside will be right around the same, and I assume engine is receiving extra fuel, due to being cold.

But then IAT will jump up to ~80-100 F ~20-30 min later, and that's when the hard start happens.

WT (engine coolant temp) values on SC seem consistently normal - it starts ~50 F on a cold start, then gradually climbs to ~200 F in a seemingly normal period of time.

Does it seem normal that IAT goes up to 80-100 F in 20 min while truck is just sitting there? I know IAT goes down when driving, due to more airflow coming in (right?), therefore I assume the opposite is true, that when you're sitting w/engine running, the engine's heat coupled with the lack of airflow should either make IAT rise or stay put, right? But should it go up that much that quickly?

 

False hope for the day
Koditten may be on to something, turns out a single wire.
I have always assumed that the "sta" signal input to the ECM initiated a "start pump or not" condition. Thinking that there may be more to it and diving deeper into the FSM to confirm, I find this. The part "The starter signal is mainly used" is key.



To test, they want to check for 6v or more on terminal "E8-13" (non Ca spec) on the ECM while cranking. Read that, ECM terminal section E8, terminal #13. Should there be no or lo voltage, there are only a few connectors to check, see the diagram above. Note that the terminal is different for "California spec". More on that in the last paragraph.



Here is the terminal layout for a 99 "other than California spec". Your year, the book I don't have, may use a different terminal. If you decide to look into this I would recommend letting your guy verify the terminal and do the check. Screwing up while probing the ECM could get expensive in an instant. You could remove the glove box and trim so his labor is minimized.
Maybe koditten or BamaToy could verify this thru their Alldata accounts?
And yes a dealer "should" be able to run a good diagnostic series if you have any arms or legs left to pay them with.

 

The rise in IAT is tough to confirm from several states away. Under hood temps vary. The only way I know to check for sure would be to put a remote reading temp probe in the air box to compare against.

Going outside to play for a while, later.

 

Thank you DP!!!!! Have fun playing, really appreciate your ongoing input! Even if your post does wind up being our "false hope for the day" at the very least your title made us bothand you know how much we need those moments right now to break up the !

Truly thankful beyond words that you took the time to look all of this up for us and post it. Wow. That's just super damn nice. Just copied your entire post to a word doc, will share this w/mechanic ASAP!

 

Have you hit the scan button on the scan gauge? Check to see if there are any pending codes that it may have recorded.

Also, does your check engine light come on when you turn the key to on, but not start position?

I do agree there should be a c hth deck engine light that should have lit when the engine control module records an odd occurrence.

 

We have checked SG for codes, and there are none. CEL light does light up in on position - not sure about in start position, will post in ~5 minutes with answer to that. Thanks Koditten!

 

Your good, I was just making sure the previous owner did not remove the light bulb that lights the CEL. I've seen it happen.

 

Gotcha. But we just started to verify that CEL goes away upon starting, cuz one of our crap manuals says it should, or otherwise it means some kind of charging problem. And it does go away upon starting, so crossing another easy to check suspect off the list.

Wanted to ask you what your TPS normally reads? Number is higher when throttle is open, and lower when closed, correct? Therefore guessing there's not really "normal" values for this, but curious what yours typically are, and whether you think this reading on SG might tell us anything.

If it winds up being this circuit stuff, is that crazy expensive to diagnose and fix ya think? When you mentioned wire stuff way earlier, it sounded like it'd be a simple, cheap fix. It's really weird to me that FSM lists those 3 circuit things (starter, fuel pressure, fuel pump) as what to check when "difficult to start, hot engine" is the problem, but then all other sources (crappy manuals, advice on the web, mechanics) all suggest looking into the stuff we've been doing, like vapor lock, vac leaks, IAC valve, TB, MAF/air intake temp sensor, ECT, checking fuel pressure, etc. Is it because the circuit stuff is a bad problem to have, so folks try to go after the other stuff first, or ??????

If we were getting CEL before engine swap (you know, the one we ignored in September that led us to where we are now), but now are having strange idling, hard starts, etc and NOT getting CEL, doesn't that pretty much prove that something w/either ECU or wiring was somehow altered during engine swap?

That's kinda freaky, to think maybe something seriously messed up is happening w/Taco, but CEL is incapable of coming on to let us know for some reason.......