SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

That's exciting. You sure his brother isn't Bill?

 

Good point Pee Runner, I'm thinkin this could very well be the case! Wait, Bama, did you happen to sneak up to Oregon and perform some serious work on a Tacoma the past 2 weeks under the radar?

 

I feel pretty certain this was the case jen.

I think something happened during reassembly after the sensor was installed (a dropped part or tool hit it) and they never even realized it got damaged.

I agree the sensor could be a simple accident that wasn't noticed, it could happen to any reputable mechanic so its not fair to use that to blame him for doing a bad job based just on that, but that said ....


based on it being reported the injector holes were full of gunk and the intake manifold was full of crap and never cleaned before it was simply put back on the new engine.

who does that! certainly not any respectable mechanic.

while it doesn't suggest he may not have done a great job rebuilding the motor, it does suggest he doesn't have a good work ethic or take any pride in the job he does

 

Yup.

And that the injector report came back with the results it did - 2 failing, and all showing low flow and only fair (not good) spray pattern after they were supposedly just professionally cleaned, tested, and replaced as needed only a couple of weeks prior. Possibly an honest mistake, but when you look at all the other stuff, it makes it more difficult to believe that there was absolutely no deliberate intentional aspect to this.....

And the lack of interest or concern in solving the problem when we repeatedly brought it to their attention. No possible way that could be considered an honest mistake. That was a conscious decision the owner of the business made every single time he sent us on our way with the issue still present. And that our current mechanic was eventually able to uncover all of the damaged/improperly serviced items, despite us reporting to him that all of those things had already been serviced/checked/rechecked, based on what we'd been told by the engine mechanic. Why didn't the engine mechanics check and recheck those things during the two additional 60 mile round trips I made to their business? IMHO, because they'd already collected our money, and we were no longer a priority compared to the new calls they were receiving from folks like us.

And when I made my final call there 2 weeks ago to tell him we didn't know what to do, the issue was still present, we planned to go to the dealer or possibly sell the truck, and asked him if he had any ideas. He made a conscious decision when he said "I'll try to do some research" then never even called us after that conversation. That was not an honest mistake. That was a choice he made.

EDIT: Just saw your additional comment Keakar, and I agree. Husband and I talked about it last night, and he suspects they had to use some sort of serious tool and some brute force to install the timing belt, and in doing that, they likely smashed that sensor and may not have even realized it. Or maybe it was a young kid who just started working there, and he was scared to fess up/get in trouble, so he hoped it would still work OK and kept his mouth shut. Either way, honest mistake or not - they clearly did not put in the effort that they should have to identify the cause of the hard warm starts, even though we begged them to resolve it, and gave them multiple opportunities to do so. And that's not OK.

 

im not so sure you can attribute his lack of caring to "knowing" anything was done wrong. it might just be lack of troubleshooting skills or even just doesn't give a shit if his work has issues after he is done period. in truth it can very well be a true honest mistake.

some guys are just engine guys and expect you to find someone else to make it run right, they just rebuild them. its a strange view to understand but I have seen guys like that quite a few times.

 

It's not a matter of whether he "knew" something was done wrong or whether he "cared" in the sense of warm fuzzy hallmark times.

It's a matter of, whether you made an honest mistake or took a deliberate short cut in the work you did, THIS ISSUE WAS NOT PRESENT PRIOR TO THE WORK YOU DID. SO FIX IT.

 

Here's a nice depressing topic -

As we're talking more, we're realizing the 2 year warranty we received with the engine is worth absolutely nothing to us.

Think about it, would any of you actually allow these "mechanics" to perform any type of work on your truck in the future, after all of the crap that's been found? Honest mistakes or intentional deceptions, it really doesn't matter when it comes to trusting them to perform quality work in the future.

Then, you start thinking about, gee, I wonder what else might have been damaged, or might have been approached in a half assed short cut manner, but just hasn't started showing symptoms yet? Doesn't exactly make me feel good about driving out into the middle of nowhere in the truck.

So, after all of this, we're probably going to sell it. How's that for a happy ending?

I will now brace myself for all the comments about how we should have done that in the first place, if only we'd listened to the advice we were given, blah blah blah. Have at it naysayers.

Thank you in advance to those that don't make those comments, and instead realize we simply chose the path that made the most sense for our situation, and took the leap of faith that would have been required with any of the options we'd chosen, and had no way of knowing at that time that we'd chosen "mechanics" who could care less about providing the quality work that we were told we'd receive and that we paid for.

 

Thanks K. The only way I can see not selling it is if we were somehow able to get them to sign something that says for the 2 year warranty period, they would cover any parts/labor charges related to the engine and the work they performed, and that the labor would be paid by them to the mechanic we are currently working with.

Thinking there's no way that's gonna happen.

Just talked to our mechanic and asked him if he thought there was any chance that they didn't realize they'd accidentally damaged that sensor. He said it looked to him like someone had applied force to it with a screwdriver or a chisel, so no, he really didn't think it was possible.

Anybody want to defend them some more?

 

oh I really dont want to even defend them by accident but I do try to give anyone the benefit of doubt when I don't know how visible it is and how easy it might be to not notice if something hit it.

by your mechanics opinion I have to wonder what they had to use a pry bar to force into place on a new engine anyway? maybe if they pried the crank out on teardown it happened then but that would mean they put it back in knowing it was damaged so no matter how you look at it it stinks

well I agree with the exception of a total engine failure, simply the economics of it would force me to let them have another go at it.

but then I would sell the truck right after

completely agree with you there

I understand the notion or getting rid of this truck no matter what but I wish you would wait a few months first to let all the emotions and bad feelings have time to subside, then take a good survey of where you stand and whats best

god bless jen, at least your truck is now 100% finished and working great now

ps - if you do sell it or trade it in do it out of town, nothing will chap your ass more then seeing it running around on the road everyday never having another problem in the world.

 

My experience- extended warranties arent worth the paper there printed on.
Ive dealt with them on reman engines, rebuilt transmissions, automotive bumper to bumper extended warranties etc. and more often than not they try to find loop holes to get out of fixes.
Larger companies like jasper are somewhat better than most indy shops that offer them.
I would drive it for a few months and monitor your fluid levels.
Rebuilding an engine isnt rocket science,for the most part, the quality of the machine work is the biggest thing to worry about. Usually if its put together wrong you will know it within the first 100 miles. If a rod or main bearing isnt installed properly, rings arent indexed, pistons installed backwards etc. It doeant take long at all for it to cause catastrophic failure.

 

Thanks Keakar. Your additional comments actually made me cry. Sorry guys, I know truck forums aren't the place to express emotions, but lots of you have been like big brothers or favorite uncles to me through this whole thing, and it helps a lot to know you guys support us.

Unfortunately you were partially wrong about one thing you said though - I actually don't know yet whether the truck is 100% fixed or not. Still waiting. Actually told my mechanic when I talked to him this morning that after all this, we are thinking about selling it, for the reasons I listed in previous posts. He's supposed to call later today. Honestly, I'm not sure I even care anymore, I'm just ready to get rid of it, hard warm starts or not.

My mechanic's thought was, usually if an engine is going to have problems, it's going to show up in the first few months. I trust his judgement, but at the same time, obviously it's just an educated guess based on what he's seen in the past, not a guarantee.

And I worry about how we were instructed to rev the engine up to 5,000 RPMs as much as we could early on in the new engine's life, to help the bearings and seals and whatever else properly seat down. How could we have done that? And the fact that we haven't done that - what does that mean in terms of the longevity of the engine? I don't know, and I shouldn't have to know - because I should have been given back a truck that I was able to operate in accordance with their break in instructions.

Then there's the chic who posted a negative review of the engine guys on their Facebook page. We saw it before we chose them, along with a handful of other bad reviews, but we had to trust someone, and had found a much higher ratio of bad reviews to good reviews on pretty much every other option we looked at. Anyway, her review said, "24,000 mile warranty and engine lasts 25, 300. Wheres the dislike button? Never again" When I first read that way back when, I told myself, maybe her truck had other issues that were never correctly diagnosed and repaired, and those issues destroyed her new engine. Even as recently as finding the injectors were not up to snuff, I kept telling myself that. But now, with the discovery of this sensor being damaged and reinstalled, I can't help but think perhaps something like that is what happened to her, and it just took a while to manifest itself. I don't know.

 

Thanks Knuckle. Yeah, my husband is still leaning towards going easy on them in terms of the additional costs we've paid and additional time without the truck, in hopes of maintaining some sort of positive relationship with them in case we'd ever need them to honor the warranty. I keep asking him, how could you ever trust them to work on the truck again, after everything our new mechanic has found?!? Why would you believe that they wouldn't damage something else in the future, or take more short cuts?!?! And what makes you think they'd actually perform whatever warrantied work that was needed in any sort of reasonable time frame, or use good quality parts, when you consider how we were treated after they'd barely finished swiping our card?

I think he's now starting to see that the warranty was, is, and always will be essentially worthless, like you are saying.

I like what you said about how we'd know in the short term if it was put together wrong - maybe that's what our mechanic was getting at too. I don't know, we definitely haven't made any final decision yet. All along, we've said the only thing that matters is getting it fixed, then we'll figure out how to proceed from there in terms of reimbursement for certain charges, keeping vs. selling, etc. And we still aren't even at that point yet. YAY!

 

This new mech/teacher is getting some good info for his classes,,or credits towards other stuff. Probably why he doesn't want to much in the form of payment. Call it a class project,,test questions,,that sort of thing.

You would be into some real big money at this point in time at a shop,,of any kind,,for this kind of diagnosis rundown work.

Your doing each other a favor. Kinda look at it that way. Takes the sting out of the money side of things on your end, and he doesn't feel too guilty about it all.

He is covering all kinds of stuff,, at a relatively quick pace.

2 months without a truck is painful to say the least. Beat down,, bad dreams, and carnage back behind us. I hope it purrs like a baby cat for you.

 

This would be my course of action...I would look at the labor to find the problems, and the cost of defective parts, such as the sensor and injector rebuild cost and ask the original mechanic to refund that cost. You can't ask for the cost of the fuel pump or other non-defective parts replaced.

I would certainly talk to the BBB and lodge a complaint...

In addition, I would drive the truck and listen very carefully for strange engine noises, excessive oil consumption, blow by or other indications of engine issues. Now, who actually rebuilt the engine? was it rebuilt by the master and installed by his idiot apprentice?

Howard

 

Thanks Mod. I like your outlook, I wish I could feel that positive and optimistic about it all. I just don't - too many awful aspects to the whole thing, and so much unpleasant stuff to resolve still.

Do you have any opinion on this?

We were instructed that the proper break in procedure for the new engine is to rev the engine up to 5,000 RPMs as much as we could early on in the new engine's life, to help the bearings and seals and whatever else properly seat down. Obviously we haven't been able to do that, and we're a good 400 miles into it now, and half of those miles were going back and forth to the engine guys at constant interstate speeds. The other half has been low speed in town driving.

What does that mean in terms of the longevity of the engine?

 

I understand your aprehension entirely. My first gen Tundra blew the transmission 100 miles from home. $200 towing bill plus the riding with the truck driver to get my Tundra home. I did exactly what you would expect. Removed the transmissoin and replaced with a used one. Even used, that tranny was $900. Got the swap done and the wife says she is never going on long trips in that Tundra again. I was expecting to drive that thing for another 100k miles. Not if it was only around town. So I sold it at a loss just to get rid of it to make the Mrs happy. It was basicly useless if one of us could not trust it for long trips. Which was the main reason we bought it.

Oddly enough, I had been secretly coveting a Second gen Tundra. Oddly enough, the wife had no issue with me buying a wrecked, Second gen Tundra out of state without even seeing it in person or hearing it run. I dunno how you women think sometimes.

That truck is the truck that is in my avitar and it runs beatifully and the wife is happy to take it on long trips.

I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe things happen for a reason. Maybe you are supposed to move your Tacoma and upgrade into a Tundra or another, newer Tacoma.

My first love is still a first gen Tacoma. I missed my previous Tacoma so much, I had to have another. That took a lot of sweet talking to get the wife to let me buy another wrecked first gen.

I don't know if running the truck at 5k rpms for that long is going to make a big difference. Once and a while, sure, but not alot. Even brand new Toyotas' don't see those kind of RPM's. It's not gonna hurt or help the longevity. If its not sealed by now, it most likely won't ever be.

 

Thank you hetkind. I agree with what you're saying - we have no intention of asking for more than what's fair. We're not looking for handouts, we're looking for what is fair. We all have different views of what's fair though, and I'm sure those guys' view will differ from ours.

In my mind, what is fair is:

[FONT=&quot]Cam position sensor - $70
Injector services with engine mechanic - $274
[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]FPR/labor with engine mechanic - $300
[/FONT]Diagnostic portion of labor with new mechanic - ? don't know this amount yet

The[FONT=&quot]n there's all the fun misce[FONT=&quot]llaneous stuff - the stripped bolt and[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] leaking fuel line [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]that we weren't even told about[/FONT], [FONT=&quot]not to me[FONT=&quot]ntion never repaired by them[FONT=&quot];[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]the crap hoses that were reinstalled when they should have been replaced[FONT=&quot];[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]the dirty filth[FONT=&quot]iness of how things were left, and who knows what else our mech[FONT=&quot]anic might find by the time [FONT=&quot]he finishes[/FONT][/FONT]. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

And to me, we deserve something for the loss of the vehicle for a full month and counting. The engine mechanic emailed me on 1/2/15 saying the engine was in, but hard warm starts. It's now 2/2/15. That's 32 days [FONT=&quot]beyond when [FONT=&quot]the truck should have been ret[FONT=&quot]urne[FONT=&quot]d to us in proper working order[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]. The cost for renting a truck that's a much newer version of a similar make/model would be nearly $1500 for that long. I realize that ain't apples to apples, cuz this one is 17 years old. But even the cheapest economy car rental would be nearly $600 for that same time period.[/FONT] And this is not huge stuff, but it's definitely crap that we shouldn't have had to deal with - [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]my husban[FONT=&quot]d had to [FONT=&quot]take off work several times[/FONT] to keep going back up there when we were told i[FONT=&quot]t was fixed and[FONT=&quot] it wasn't (and th[FONT=&quot]at sho[FONT=&quot]uld have been obvious to them if they were [FONT=&quot]making even a minimal ef[FONT=&quot]fort[FONT=&quot] to duplicate the issue), plus all the gas we wasted go[FONT=&quot]ing back and forth up there, probably close to a full tank. [FONT=&quot]Small stuff in the big picture that we'll likely never see a dime [FONT=&quot]for[/FONT], but stuff that we wouldn't have dealt with if they'd done top notch work as promised. And speaking of stuff that we'll probably never see a dime[FONT=&quot] for[FONT=&quot], how bout the mo[FONT=&quot]nth of pure hellish stress that woul[FONT=&quot]d not have occurred if the[FONT=&quot]y'd done thi[FONT=&quot]ngs right the first time? [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Honestly, all the guys at that shop look very young. I feel like an idiot now that we didn't consider that more [FONT=&quot]heavily when choosing[FONT=&quot], because [FONT=&quot]with age comes experience, and [FONT=&quot]with experience comes skill and knowledge. But the[FONT=&quot]y showcase their business as specializing in[FONT=&quot] Toy[FONT=&quot]ota truck & SUV engines, with suspe[FONT=&quot]ns[FONT=&quot]ion [FONT=&quot]and mods on the side. But mostly engine work. So we looked past their age and felt like they'd be most qualified and experienced with our particular engine type than anyone else.[FONT=&quot]

So to answer your question hetkind, while [FONT=&quot]I [FONT=&quot]can't say for sure, I do[/FONT][/FONT] suspect that it was probably a[FONT=&quot] young guy who didn't have much experience handling a[FONT=&quot] lot of the labor, which is why our new mechanic is finding [FONT=&quot]all of these issues. And [FONT=&quot]if that young guy[FONT=&quot] is being underpaid and overworked (or at least in his own view), [FONT=&quot]well, that impa[FONT=&quot]cts a person[FONT=&quot]'s work ethic[FONT=&quot] for sure.

[FONT=&quot]We're just trying to decide whether [FONT=&quot]it's worth[FONT=&quot]wh[FONT=&quot]ile to approach them directly or not[FONT=&quot] as a first step. [FONT=&quot]Th[FONT=&quot]ey've not treated us well once we paid them, and the tr[FONT=&quot]eatment kept creeping downhill from that moment that the payment was made. So it seems sort of pointless [FONT=&quot]for my husband to take off work AGAIN to drive up there and try to talk to them[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot], [/FONT]because I highly doubt they would hav[FONT=&quot]e a sudden change of heart and want to do the right thing, when they were given so many [FONT=&quot]opportunities to do the ri[FONT=&quot]ght thing by getting[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] the issue re[FONT=&quot]solved for us before. Difference this time is, we[FONT=&quot] wouldn't be asking for [FONT=&quot]diagnosis and repairs like we were then[FONT=&quot],[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]but rather [FONT=&quot]for $ back[FONT=&quot], and I'm sure the 1st item is[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] less detri[FONT=&quot]mental to th[FONT=&quot]eir bottom line than the 2nd item. [FONT=&quot]A[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]nd knowing what I know of them thus far, me[FONT=&quot] thinks that would be a pointless trip to make.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT]

 

well jen, you can just take over the $390 a month payments on my my lemon 2014 Silverado with around 1800 miles on it, hell i'll drive down there to drop it off to you just to get rid of it. it massages you with strong drivetrain vibrations anytime you go over 65 mph so that's a free bonus feature.

JK, you have to do whats in your best interest and unfortunately this whole deal has been unpleasant for you.

lets look at something to make you smile and assist in your search for your next truck. are you sure you want brand new and its not better to sell yours and get another second hand first gen truck? I know I would rather pay more for a first gen then to have a second gen, I just don't think they are made as well.