SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

Change the oil then run it up to the snow line, up on Hood. Hell, Have a drop in the undergound Saloon at Timberline Lodge if it is clear going up. About 6000' there I think at the lodge. You'll pull a few hills and coast down some valleys as you go up. Take a bucket of misc tools, water, scooby snacks, charge the phones, watch the gauges, ect.

Your going to have to leg it out there eventually. Tow truck?,,don't even think it. Just run it.

Really nice that someone is sending a new brain box. Run it with yours first for a bit so you can get a recent comparison if you do decide to swap it out.

 

Sorry to say I was not taking a trip up there. If I was, I would have told you!

You should be fine for the break-in. Keep off steady RPMs, and allow the engine to go up and down. I always would go for about 15-20 miles when I broke in a new engine and would use variable throttle angles to speed up to about 45 MPH, then let it coast back down to 15, then back up again, using 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 throttle positions several times through the drive. As for bringing it up to 5000RPMs on a consistent basis, that is a bad idea.

I gotta kinda agree with this one. I know you don't like the guy, but at this point you need to get it fixed. Poor good mechanic has to deal with a family issue and that sucks for him. I would consider at this point taking the truck to Toyota and asking for ONLY a diagnostic. Get them to diagnose the problem, and make the original installing shop either replace the part Toyota finds is bad, or pay for Toyota to install the correct part.

 

It's not about liking the engine mechanic, I could care less whether I like him or not. It's about not having any faith in his skills, experience, tools, knowledge, and desire to correct the issue. We are now looking at things like ECM. I am CONFIDENT that the engine guys are WAY LESS capable of tackling anything related to the ECM compared to the current mechanic. I've not been confident about much throughout this whole thing, but this, I am very very confident about. If only you guys could have been there for the conversations that took place the last 2 times I went there, and spoke with them on the phone. They were telling us they'd look on the internet to see what they could find, then showing us the door. Hell, I can do that myself! Wait, I AM doing that myself! When I asked them about testing our IAC valve, they didn't know what I was talking about, and said there wasn't a way to test it. I had to email them the piece of paper that DP posted so they would know what I wanted them to do. That doesn't seem right to me, as that seems like a fairly straightforward test to perform. Sure, I can try to MAKE them care and do something about it by being more assertive, but I honestly don't think they have the skills and knowledge to properly identify the issue and repair it. And with all of the shoddy work we've now found, I just can't see how that would be in our best interest. It's completely unfair that this crap is coming out of our pocket now, it shouldn't be. And who knows whether we'll get any sort of reimbursement via credit card dispute, etc, but I just cannot hand my truck back to them and trust that they will actually make an intelligent, determined attempt to solve the issue, no matter how assertive I am about it. They will put it in the back of their shop and ignore it, then send some kid to go tinker around with it for 5 minutes, perhaps damage a part along the way, then call us and tell us its fixed when its not. That's what's been happening multiple times with them, which is why we eventually went elsewhere, and I can't see why it would be any different now.

Bama, thank you for your thoughts. I agree with your suggestion in a lot of ways, but not sure if we can do that right now because.......

Current mechanic said he reset the ECM, and is hoping for a CEL so that he can see the codes when he gets back. Something about how the computer will have to relearn all the sensors, so he wants us to put it through a full drive cycle by putting a lot of miles on it. Something about a mode 6. Yes, it sounds like a nightmare to let this go for yet another week. On the other hand, I'm kinda nervous to go to Toyota after he reset the ECM, cuz I have no idea how that would/would not hinder what they'd be able to tell, then on top of that, if we wind up needing to go back to our current mechanic (which is where we may want to stay long term anyway in terms of costs, etc), it would suck if Toyota did something to screw up what he's trying to do right now. He asked us not to mess with anything - no disconnecting battery, no pulling sensors off to dink around, etc. Just change the oil/filter for the 500 mark, and get some miles on it.

The guy has checked everything under the sun you guys! He even took the valve covers off to check that the cams were seated right! Bought and replaced the crank sensor on his own dime, had underneath the steering wheel all opened up to check all the circuit opening relay stuff. Tried sticking the MAF in the freezer, since we kept saying IAT had to be 60+ for a hard warm start, and proved that to be untrue, as it still struggled to start at the appropriate time interval even when that temp was like 20 degrees I think he said. He listed off/pointed out about 1000 other things that I'm forgetting right now, but it's very clear to me that he is truly checking everything, not just saying he is like those VERY NICE MECHANICS. He's pretty much gone over the entire truck head to toe and the ECM is kind of the last thing. But I can tell his gut is still saying a fuel issue, but he can't see how it could be, considering the entire fuel system is new. Don't know. All I know is he will not let this go until he fixes it, and even though he may not be doing everything perfectly, and occasionally pisses me off when he doesn't call when he said he would, he is so ridiculously honest, and I can trust that he will tell us the truth about whatever he finds and whether he made a mistake, etc. We just spent like 40 minutes at the guy's house, with the hood up, and he was pointing out every damn thing under there that he's gone over - he showed us the ground wires, explained how he's checked for a vac leak, showed us how when he replaced the bad hoses he made sure they were routed so they wouldn't touch something they shouldn't (forget what), etc etc etc. I really believe this guy knows his stuff and is trying his very best, and I like his theory about resetting the computer to help him see WTF is going on. And he doesn't want any money from us so far! I know eventually we will be paying him something, but he is acting like he's not going to charge us for stuff that isn't actually fixing anything. Like the sensor, the injectors - those didn't fix it, but thank goodness he found them, because they did need to be addressed! I think because they did need to be repaired/serviced, we will pay for labor on them. But the pump - I think he feels bad about that and doesn't want us to pay labor on it! That's nuts, what a crappy job to not get paid for, of all the things to do on the truck. I have a feeling we're going to wind up forcing him to take a larger payment than what he asks for in the end, which is just mind blowing. He's just too damn nice and honest, I don't know if I can stray from him. Trust me guys, when I describe the stuff he's telling us on here, it doesn't even come close to doing justice to the level of insight he has - I just do a poor job of paraphrasing it. He knows what he's doing and the truck is being an asshole. I honestly don't think a dealer tech could do any better - faster, maybe, but not better.

I gotta say, even though I am seriously f'ing depressed that this issue is STILL PRESENT, it feels so good to have our truck back. I love that damn truck so much! That engine has to be good - it just runs so beautifully! You have to be careful not to squeal the tires just when you're starting out from a stop sign on dry pavement! I get to do errands this week, woo hoo! And the park! My 4 legged kid (Dolly) and I get to hit the park every day this week, woo hoo! Squirrels better watch out, we're coming!

It does start during typical hard warm start time if you hold the accelerator down. Lightbulbs anyone? That seems like either somehow fuel is still leaking down in there, or the engine is sending too much fuel during a hot start, or an EVAP issue to me. Also, he said he repeated the noid light test Sat night on the injectors, and this time it looked like there was TOO much fuel going in during hard warm start, as opposed to no pulse.

I still think this is an EVAP thing, #2 on Haynes list, just like I said from day 1. I feel like no one has really explained to me thoroughly thus far why there's no way it could be that/how that has been ruled out. I don't know.

EDIT: Bottom line to this post that's way too long - I agree 100% that the right thing to do under normal circumstances would be to take the truck back to the engine mechanics and insist that they fix it NOW, because this problem didn't exist before they worked on it. BUT, while I might be able to be assertive and sort of force them to do it, I cannot force them to become good mechanics. I think they are good engine builders, and I suspect, from what we've found and experienced overall, they are very rough around the edges in terms of details and patience to do careful diagnostic work, as well as lacking experience at it. I can't teach them those things. That's why I don't think we'd benefit in the big picture by going back there - I honestly fear that they might damage more stuff rather than improve the situation. I think all they would do is tell us to replace things that aren't necessarily going to fix the issue, rather than properly diagnosing it. And I realize sometimes an issue becomes so difficult to troubleshoot that this approach starts to become the only option. But they were very quick to put in a $300 FPR then tell us it fixed it, when it clearly didn't. Current mechanic is running into some of that too unfortunately, but he's trying a heck of a lot harder than they ever did to look at/test everything possible before adding parts. And when he gets to a point where he's so frustrated that he's ready to throw parts at it, he buys them on his own dime! Who does that?!?

File IFR, thank you for the support, I agree with you that this is unacceptable and should be their responsibility. And it's not that I'm worried about imposing on them by any means. And I hate feeling like we are getting taken, it's not fair at all. But we just don't trust them to do quality work at this point, see above. Thank you for giving me your thoughts though, I really really wish we could do what you're saying, I just don't think it would be the right move at this point though, because I have very little faith in their abilities.

 

Thanks Keakar, definitely made me laugh, husband too!

 

I love that little tavern in the basement up there! Blue Ox, right? That place is awesome, so tiny and cozy and delicious! Come on down and meet us, then you can come out to the parking lot and check out the Taco! And if you just so happened to be rolling around with all of your tools, FSM, and various parts that may or may not need replacing, we wouldn't argue if you felt like setting up a makeshift garage in the snow buddy! We could set up at the base of the Magic Mile, I'm sure the lift operators won't mind! Did I mention that you are my very best friend in the whole world?

Seriously, what did you mean about running the new brain box with ours first to get a recent comparison? What you are talking about is different from "flashing" the ECM, correct? Our mechanic said we could do that if any of the features on the truck that the ECM is coming from are different (tranny type, 4wd vs not, TRD OR vs not, etc).

 

Found this when googling Mode 6, Toyota. I guess this is what we're trying to accomplish by resetting the ECM? What is a full drive cycle, does anyone know?

http://alflash.com.ua/OBDII/PIDs.pdf

Mode 6
On-Board Monitoring Test Results for Non-Continuously Monitoring Systems reports on the non-continuous monitors:

• Catalyst
• Evaporative System
• Secondary Air System
• Oxygen/Air Fuel Sensor
• Oxygen/Air Fuel Sensor Heater
• EGR System
• Thermostat

The use of this mode is that you can use the ECM to verify if a problem exists, as determined by the ECM. The ECM compares the non-continuous monitor test data to the test limits and reports to the scan tool a Pass or Fail indication for each monitored system/component. This mode will report results in one trip if the monitor runs and completes its testing. Two different screens showing Pass and Fail. Some vehicles will show TID in place of Time.

 

glad I could help.

if it were me I would just use the truck like it is until your mechanic can return to it, it is usable so use it and im sure the guy sees it as a challenge he wont let defeat him and that is the best kind of motivation for a mechanic.

that said, if swapping the ecm doesn't help or fix the problem then put your original back in and (if its in your budget) I think bama had the best solution at this point right up until the send it back to engine guy part. there I am with you 1000% engine guy had shown and proven to be clueless about even simple routine troubleshooting tasks so there is no reason in the world to believe he is any more qualified they you are to fix it and to be honest I think you know a lot more about troubleshooting then he does. the idea of letting Toyota find the problem then return to him to fix it is just asking for him to do another halfassed job of it. let Toyota find the problem AND fix the problem, unless its something simple you can fix yourself like changing a part under the hood.

so to sum up, wait for your mechanic to return or you could take the truck to Toyota and asking for ONLY a diagnostic. Get them to diagnose the problem, and decide if you can replace the part Toyota finds is bad, or pay for Toyota to install the correct part.

ps - just to be clear the problem you are having, it hard starts at 1 hour only but any other time longer or shorter it doesn't have any problem starting, is this correct?

just my 2 1/2 cents plus bubble gum

 

Thanks buddy. I agree completely. This is exactly how we are leaning right now - basically wait until current mechanic returns, hope and pray that this mode 6 checking of the ECM after resetting it tells him something, then based on that possibly swap it with the donor.

My biggest concern with this approach is if he needs to stay down there longer. Obviously he needs to take all the time in the world to attend to such an important family matter like this, without a second thought to our Taco's issues. But at the same time, we gotta keep moving forward on this thing. He thought he'd be gone a week, but then said "I'm hoping I don't have to stay for a funeral" - so sad. I've been in that situation, my grandma was passing, and we flew back to Illinois to be with her while she was still semi coherent, then she was slowly passing over a period of a few weeks. At that point, it doesn't make sense to fly home, then wind up turning right around again a day or two later for the funeral. So you wind up having no idea how long you'll be gone, but all that matters is staying as long as you need to. So we're thinking if we don't hear from him after a week-ish, we'll go to the dealer and explain that he reset the ECM, then see if they can diagnose this stupid problem. But I know he will take it very personally and feel defeated and like he let us down if we go to the dealer, so we talked about calling him first if a week went by and we hadn't heard from him yet. But that's totally messed up too, cuz I can't imagine trying to call him when he very well might be sitting in a hospital by his dying brother's bedside.

Good grief. This has seriously become a TV series guys. Too many dramatic elements to it. Really can't believe it. When I first signed up on TW, I thought about all I'd do is see if anyone could tell whether the noise videos sounded like a spun rod bearing or not. And look at where we are now. Completely insane.

EDIT: Keakar, yes correct. EVERYTHING is perfect on the truck except the hard warm starts. Runs beautifully - we and the mechanic really think the engine is good. Starts instantly showroom style when cold, or if only shut off for a moment. But cranks excessively when sitting for a certain period. Used to be 30 min, then mechanic said it changed to ~1 hour mark. We just got it back, so not completely sure, but definitely somewhere within 30-60 min is the bad time. We treated ourselves to our fave mexican restaurant last night (totally shouldn't be spending $ on it right now, but just had to get out of this mode for a bit), and we were probably in there ~1 hour. Excessive cranking when we came out. I about started bawling when we got to mechanic's house to pick up and he started it for us, like he didn't want to watch us start it ourselves or something - he even looked like he was gonna cry when it cranked excessively. We kept thanking him, and he just kept saying, "I'm so sorry it's not fixed you guys." He's just incredible. We've yet to give him a dime.

 

I wouldn't worry about it jen, the problem with your truck seams relatively minor and had you just been lucky (or unlucky) if he never noticed the problem you may be happily driving around never even knowing it. think about the odds of how many times you will happen to go start your truck exactly one hour from when you parked it? odds are you may never get the right timing to have discovered this issue on your own and lets say it cant be solved, whats the big whupty-do if you just have to be sure to wait an extra 10 minutes before you leave if you have stopped somewhere for exactly one hour?

 

I'm patiently waiting...I guess it the only thing I can do. Again, fingers crossed.

KO

 

I know, I've thought about this more than once. Like, if I was still working at my old job after we'd gotten it back from the engine guys, I would have driven it to work and it would have sat there for 8 hours. Then started right up. It might have gone unnoticed for weeks, or even months.

But, I just can't let it go. After the complete SHOCK of burning a hole in a piston on a freaking Taco with no warning whatsoever, and with everything that's been done to the truck recently, and now with discovering things like leaking/failing injectors that we were told were just cleaned/tested with the engine guys, it is just too worrisome for me that we could wind up overlooking something serious that could lead to major repair expenses later on if we let this go.

 

Thanks K - I can't thank you enough buddy, really I can't.

 

and to be honest, no one knows if this truck hasn't been having this issue since you got it and just never knew it. even if there was the one rare hard start somewhere along the line would never have been thought to be anything since it never did it again, at least the situation was never the same again. it might have been doing this the day you bought it.

 

Nope. That I can say 100 trillion % is not the case. I take Dolly to the park every single day for the past few years in the Taco, and every single time we are there somewhere between 30-60 minutes. Some days 30, some 45, some 60, depending how her bad leg holds up (severe arthritis, but loves to squirrel chase, so we find the right balance). Anyway, I am absolutely certain that this issue was not present before the engine guys worked on it. 1 billion trillion million percent positive, no question at all.

EDIT: We've been driving that truck daily since 2003 or 2004 (I forget) - there is absolutely no question in my mind that in that period of time, we've definitely had lots and lots of stops at those time intervals, and I am CERTAIN this never happened before.

EDIT: I'm willing to believe it's possible that there was something faulty before that was somehow masked with the old engine, but is now displaying symptoms with the new one, simply because I don't know enough about how a truck works to say there's no way that's possible. But still, it seems odd if that was the case.......

 

ok, well that's great news then, sorta.

at least you are ahead of the game in that you can say for certain its a new problem.

what keeps popping up in my mind (other then butterflies and bluebirds) is you cant say its the engine because he could have damaged, stepped on, broke, or pulled loose, "anything" under the hood while he was in there.

hmm, i wonder if you had in the beginning, immediately enrolled in Toyota mechanic training, you might be close to graduating by now with everything you learned so far

ps - just for the heck of it i think you should go grab a charcoal canister from the salvage yard and try swapping them. they can cause "strange" starting issues and its unclear from anything i read about them if there is any way to be 100% certain they are functioning correctly except by just swapping them out to see. i think you can get one for like $6 if i remember correctly back when you were looking at this part. granted this is a "parts changers" repair attempt but what the heck, gamble on $6 and see if that does "anything", you really have nothing to loose while you wait for your mechanic to return.

 

Seriously!! We were just talking about that - for most college courses, you spend ~5-10 hours total time per week on class time and homework, and the class runs for ~12 weeks. That's 120 hours at the most, right?

I spend ~10 hours per day, 7 days a week, for 2+ months on this. That's 560 hours so far. I'm ready for summer break guys.

Too bad TW doesn't offer a degree, right?!?

The bolded part of what you said - yes, that's exactly what I'm thinking. Although, you gotta wonder if whatever caused the piston hole is somehow related to this issue. I know the injector was the final culprit, but did something before the injector make it go wacky, like ECM, or something to do w/fuel system or EVAP system somehow?

Mechanic was saying that once or twice in his entire career, he's seen an injector die and take out the ECM with it. I think that's what he's wondering right now, if perhaps that injector at #3 just died during piston hole event, then killed the ECM at the same time.

On a lighter, brighter, butterflies and bluebirds note, I'm thinking of changing my TW name from Jen to either:

1) Crazy missing electrode lady
2) Hard warm starts
3) I LOVE ENGINE MECHANICS

EDIT: #3 should read: I love MY engine mechanic

Votes?

Just saw this part, and I agree. Brought up the weird clicking noise we were hearing from it last night to our mechanic, as well as how those guys said they blew dirt out of a line to it. Pretty sure we told him this before, although, hell, who can remember anything at this point. But his response was that it's normal for them to make some noise, but shouldn't be a really super fast sounding click. I kinda felt like that might have gotten some wheels turning in his mind about that whole topic, and I think he'd agree with what you're saying when he's back, why not for such a low cost anyway. Thanks Keakar.

 

nope, put that baby to bed and file it under case closed. the injector alone was your whole issue and the reason for engine failure. done finished case closed. i know it sounds too simple to be just that but it is just that simple.

all the other problems (hell i cant even remember what else you said was wrong after so many posts) but they are completely unrelated to what happened to the cause of engine failure or were new problems that started after engine guy got hold of it.

 

Yeah, sure seems the most likely, especially after discovering the damaged sensor, the injector stuff, the fuel return line leak, stripped bolt, etc etc etc. Really, I do still think, based on what I know at this point, that they are fabulous engine rebuilders, and they are a young business trying to ramp up to something bigger, and that is all very admirable. But it appears he's hiring young guys that likely don't have a lot of experience, and asking them to perform labor tasks/diagnostics that should really be left to guys who have more experience. And that's where we went wrong with them. Sucks, because now we get to play guessing games, seemingly for the rest of our lives at the rate we're going, to find the secret damage that was done during that process. Good times!

I wish sooooooooooooooooooo badly now that we'd known about our new mechanic back then - I would have bought the engine from those guys, then had this mechanic do all the labor. We would have been back on the road with 100% confidence in no time. Way lower overall costs too. Damn damn damn, too late.

 

Sorry to here the news.
Been conspicuously absent here so as not to come off as a gloomy Gus and spoil any precious moments of hope.
Without trying to be all high and mighty, I had my doubts about the cam sensor causing your specific problem. Largely due to the overall good performance of the engine and my understanding of the function of the cam sensor, crank sensor relationship. That being said, given the physical damage and "not getting any reading at all", your guy did the right thing and I would have done the same. From 900 miles away, a zero resistance reading should have set a code. Now it's quite possible that something was lost in the translation/interpretation of what he said. From here I can only go word for word. Considering all that, the only component that has not been changed is the ECM. Faulty/no injector pulses from the ECM in the "hard hot start" period, assuming good ECM inputs leads to thinking the worst. I just didn't have the heart to go there while there was still any shred of hope.

On the positive side, finding a loaner ECM is extremely fortunate. It's beyond extremely fortunate, buy a lottery ticket. I say take a breather, break in your engine and stay with your guy. Hopefully he will be back soon. Your are fortunate to have someone like that and given his intimacy with your case, I would see it through. As far as the "reset" thing, sure there's a chance and it's free so wait and see. Gee, I'm a poet.

Breaking in the engine. I have always used BamaToy's approach. Shortly after the Stone Age, while in the boat business we would get regular visits from factory service reps of several engine manufactures. While chewing the fat with these guys "break in" often came up. Some of the manufacturers had specific break in guidelines culminating in a required "20 hour check". This was mostly to change the engine and gearbox oil with a good going over for loose fasteners, belts etc.
Anyhow, talking with these guys in the context of breaking in our personal engines, some (usually the younger ones) would say "drive it like you stole it", "if it doesn't blow up you got a good one, it's got a warranty". Others recommended the BamaToy approach.
Engine building technology has come a long way since then and in most cases break in procedures are less critical. Heck, in the late fifties some of the GM "small block" V8's were having problems breaking in piston rings. The factory recommendation to dealers was to slowly pour a can of kitchen cleanser down the carburetor while revving the engine up and down followed by an oil change. They recommended "Babo" over Comet.
I treat my engines like a first born child.

Soap Opera, reality TV, heck yea. "As The Pistons Churn", "The Wrench Next Door" and "Judge Judy" rolled into one.

 

Thank you DP! Was so eager to see all of your comments I just quickly scanned through them and will now go back and savor/dissect your whole post all over again, but wanted to get my thank you in before ya disappeared to go help some other poor soul on TW!!!

Wait, is "as the pistons churn" a real thing? Or are you just that clever? I like it! Maybe we should approach the admins of TW to get this reality show started guys?!!

EDIT: And now for DP's favorite, 4 billion edits! ta da!!!!

EDIT#2: Got it on the break in, will go back and review the Bama approach another time, sounds like this is what you'd recommend.

EDIT #3: Totally understand why you disappeared, I'm just glad you're back! Glad to hear you think our mechanic did the right thing with the sensor, even though it wasn't the fix. By the way, I'm still upset at the engine guys about that sensor, even if it was somehow damaged before they touched it (doubt it), they should have noticed and told us!!

EDIT # 4: Exactly, I was quite surprised that a sensor that damaged would not set a code. Perhaps that's part of why our mechanic is now looking at the ECM....

EDIT #5: Yep, I owe the incredibly generous donor of that Taco brain in a big way. Bigtime. Soooooooooooooooo grateful beyond words about that. People like that, people like our mechanic, and people like you guys restore my faith in humanity. End Hallmark moment. I'm not even making myself cry, how bout that guys? Proud of me?

EDIT #6: Nice poet skills DP! And seriously, I'm relieved to hear your opinion about waiting for our current mechanic to return. He clearly has cared more in a very personal way about helping us out, and he just happens to be pretty damn brilliant about troubleshooting too. So that's decided for sure now, will wait for him to return, go with whatever next steps he says (asking a billion questions along the way of course! ), and enjoy getting to use my truck for a whole week in the meantime, yay!

EDIT #7: This concludes DP's favorite editing mode for today. Tune in tomorrow for further editing. Thank you for watching.